TheMightyOdin
New member
I thinks it?s a lack of ?seizing the moment? that is frustrating. It sucks to lose but it?s worse when it seems like they?re not playing up to their potential.
R2, G3: Panthers vs. Maple Leafs - May 7th, 6:30pm - SN, Fan 590
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
Kin
Active member
Bender said:
It's absolutely a fair question and, to be sure, I think that if this series ends without the Leafs getting back into it I would be shocked if Keefe kept his job. It would be very difficult at this point to argue that he is getting the most out of this team.
As for "retooling" I think your choice of word there is apt because I think some people are kidding themselves if they think the Leafs can "move on" from this group of core players and not have it be another return to the drawing board where you basically start from scratch. If the central premise for making changes is "The main guys on this team are overpriced bums who fold under pressure and can't win anything. Also, let's trade them for really good players who can win in crunch time" you are misreading how trades generally work.
And, you know, for what it's worth I listen to a sports podcast out of Miami and the things we're all saying about the Leafs now is what they were saying about the Panthers last year when they got swept in the second round so...?
ZBBM
Well-known member
This may be heresy, but after cooling off a bit I wonder about blowing up the core entirely and changing the playstyle. This group has been a helluva lot of fun to watch during the season, and there is a lot more time spent watching that than the playoffs.
From a purely odds-based perspective the chances of winning the Cup are so low, for any team.
So from an overall-amount-of-fun perspective, I'm tempted to let this group get one last chance together next year ... with a new coach.
From a purely odds-based perspective the chances of winning the Cup are so low, for any team.
So from an overall-amount-of-fun perspective, I'm tempted to let this group get one last chance together next year ... with a new coach.
Nik said:
It is kind of hilarious to me that they barely made the playoffs and have been the hottest team since Game 5 of the Boston series, and we'll see if they can replicate their playoff success but people I think people were of mixed opinion in giving up both Huberdeau and Weegar for Tkachuk and now Tkachuk and Bennett and a few other guys they've brought on are playing a completely different brand of hockey now. I think if Leafs fans saw that, or in Leafs terms, had more guys like (or played a style like) Doug, Wendel and Darcy and saw them leaving it all our there on the ice if things werent going their way, matching the other team in hustle and spirit and forecheck but not on the scoreboard we'd probably think differently as well. I think there's a reason why we still love the 92/93 team and still talk about guys like Tucker and Roberts even though they never won.
Guilt Trip
Well-known member
But Tkachuk fell in their laps and let's be honest, they barely made the playoffs.Bender said:
Guilt Trip
Well-known member
We're lucky to have such a talented team to watch for 82 plus games a year. Playoffs are a crapshoot. Hot goalie, team gets on a heater, bounces don't go your way, whatever. Is what it is. I don't think the core goes anywhere. They've lost 3 close games this series. Last series they won them. It's a game of inches. Matthews hits the crossbar in the early minutes of the game.Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
We'll see what happens Wednesday but it's not over yet.
Guilt Trip said:
Guilt Trip said:
Remember the year that the Leafs signed Roberts and Corson, and then the team struggled throughout the year, squeaked into the playoffs and the swept the Sens in the first round. That's kinda like what the Panthers did this year.
I think if the Leafs go out in four, then it's probably Nylander who goes. Apparently Detroit is interested and they have three firsts in this year's draft. Maybe you take the three first, draft some young players and use the money to get a couple of high end grinders.
It will be an interesting summer, especially if Dubas leaves.
Kin
Active member
Bender said:
I very much disagree with this for a few reasons. Mainly you're just talking about the team playing better. More hustle, more spirit, more effective forechecking...the reason we like those things is because they tend to result in good results on the scoreboard. So, yeah, to me this is like saying "We'd be happier if the Leafs were playing better" which is probably true but perhaps not very revealing either.
But also I just don't agree with the premise. I've been around here when the Leafs weren't very good but were hitting teams and then the frustration is about the team's lack of finish and skill. Truth is, what fans like is winning. That's why we like the 92/93 team. It was the most successful Leafs team in most of our lifetime.
ZBBM
Well-known member
Matthews isn't going anywhere for the remainder of his contract.
Nylander is the likeliest to go just because of his contract.
Marner has good point totals this playoffs but his gamestyle is the least playoff-adaptible.
Tavares is still a good player but should be making 2/3ds the money.
Rielly has shut me up. He's delivered most every post-season.
O'Reilly's shiny new toy status has worn off quickly.
Maybe the most impactful decisions are on D.
Nylander is the likeliest to go just because of his contract.
Marner has good point totals this playoffs but his gamestyle is the least playoff-adaptible.
Tavares is still a good player but should be making 2/3ds the money.
Rielly has shut me up. He's delivered most every post-season.
O'Reilly's shiny new toy status has worn off quickly.
Maybe the most impactful decisions are on D.
Nik said:
Right, but I dont mean hitting vs. Talent in an all or nothing sense. In the case of our current team I think it's also a stylistic difference. The Leafs played passively and I think theres a time and place for that but the team should be capable to match stylistically to the Panthers if we wanted.
Regarding the team comparison, Ok possibly, but I still liked all of those Leafs teams from 98-04 and they didn't all do well, (that JR goal is burned into mu psyche) but I always appreciated the sandpaper and perceived compet3 they brought to most games (save that like 12 shot game against Jersey). You had skill but you also had guys like Tucker and Roberts.
I also think Toronto fans in general like heart and soul, crash and bang, not afraid to mix it up guys.
TheMightyOdin
New member
Knowing my past leaf trauma I?m preparing for the team to win the next 3 and then lose game 7.
ZBBM
Well-known member
As you would expect Petrielli lays into Keefe in the MLHS game summary for riding the top players even when they don't produce (looking mostly at Marner).
I actually think Mitch has had a more effective playoff than some of his past showings, but tonight he looked emasculated, scared, and overmatched and was simply awful.
I actually think Mitch has had a more effective playoff than some of his past showings, but tonight he looked emasculated, scared, and overmatched and was simply awful.
BrownRolo
New member
Guilt Trip said:
Tkachuk did not fall into their laps. They gave up a huge amount to get him. And at the time a lot of people were saying it was a steal of a deal for the Flames. It's pretty obvious you need these type of hardnosed players to succeed in the playoffs. You look at the Oilers. They've got some major bite to them. They've got a swagger. This Leaf team always plays like it's a preseason game and they don't want to get hurt. The Leafs needed to make a big change to this core. It's something Dubas should have done after the Habs series. It was obvious then and it's been obvious since. Dubas made great deals on paper. In the regular season a lot of them looked great. Has there been one player in this playoffs that has really stoodout? I honestly can't think of one player. They've all just been so mediocre.
If I'm management I'm giving Dubas/Keefe the boot. I'm bringing in a new GM. That new GM needs to deal Marner. That new GM needs to sign Matthews now and I'm not giving Matthews a big raise. If he wants a big raise and is unwilling to sign before the season starts I'm trading him too. You can not let Matthews walk to free agency. The future isn't looking too bright in Leafland if I'm being honest.
BrownRolo
New member
Guilt Trip said:
Oh also to add to the "barely made the playoffs" Like that is something to discredit them. Who gives a flying f**k if they barely made the playoffs? Let's ask the Panthers. You could be heading to the 3rd round or you could get swept in the 2nd round but finish 2nd in the ATL. What would you choose? Ask the fans. No one cares about the regular season. Especially Leaf fans.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
So I missed the first half of the game but caught the bottom half of the second, the third, and OT
What was most concerning to me, and it's probably been stated above, is that they showed no desire to win. They showed a desire "not to lose". The overtime goal highlighted it. Why would a team suddenly go into a penalty kill formation, stop moving their feet, and start watching the puck. The last 6 minutes of the 3rd looked exactly the same way. They had the motto of "Let's not give up a goal. Please don't give up a goal. We can't lose this game. Oh please don't score on us"...Once you go into that mindset, you're defeated. It's a depressing state to be in and a tough one to climb out of.
I've been a pretty upbeat, positive supporter of this team on here, but this is Montreal and Columbus regurgitated.They almost looked like they were trying to get Keefe fired.
As a side note, did Keefe have a time out still in the OT? I would have used it after the first two shifts that we couldn't get out of our end.
What was most concerning to me, and it's probably been stated above, is that they showed no desire to win. They showed a desire "not to lose". The overtime goal highlighted it. Why would a team suddenly go into a penalty kill formation, stop moving their feet, and start watching the puck. The last 6 minutes of the 3rd looked exactly the same way. They had the motto of "Let's not give up a goal. Please don't give up a goal. We can't lose this game. Oh please don't score on us"...Once you go into that mindset, you're defeated. It's a depressing state to be in and a tough one to climb out of.
I've been a pretty upbeat, positive supporter of this team on here, but this is Montreal and Columbus regurgitated.They almost looked like they were trying to get Keefe fired.
As a side note, did Keefe have a time out still in the OT? I would have used it after the first two shifts that we couldn't get out of our end.
Significantly Insignificant said:
Which is the point in that they traded arguably their best player for Tkachuk. Obviously this won't be re-created and Tkachuk is a bit of a unicorn, but there's this crash and bang element to the Panthers game that they didn't have before. They're constantly mixing it up and pressuring you to make plays and for you to fumble the puck. Worked like a charm on Marner.
I still think if they put up a good effort yesterday, maybe had the series at 1-1 and adjusted after realizing their game wasn't working and played a tight and contested OT and are down 2-1 you could at least think they could still bring it. But going down 3-0 in the fashion that they did, scoring only 2 goals for a handful of games now, to some degree lucking out of the first round... let alone literally their playoffs history for the last 6yrs I think we've all seen enough out of this iteration of this team and some offseason surgery is sorely needed.