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Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

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No Shanahan cannot appear to be brash?he needs some time to sort it out. He may even wait till the end of the playoffs to do the hatchet job. Abrubt movement suggests panic and Shanahan realizes he has to press the no panic button.
 
Optimus Reimer said:
Unfortunately in a team culture and environment, the players have each others backs so when the criticism by a coach is unfair or without foundation, the rest of the players will take offence of that criticism.  On the other hand, if the criticism is fair and warranted, the players should be 'man enough' to take it and try to improve.
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There's still a massive difference between "taking offence" to a criticism and quitting. That's just a complete lack of professionalism. I don't buy that as a reason for the collapse but if it were then, yes, you should get rid of those players because anyone who would get that offended by some pretty mild words from Carlyle and think that, rather than attempt to address the issue constructively while still playing their best, they should just cash in and disappoint their paying customers isn't someone who I'd trust around the club in the future.

They're adults. Not liking your boss isn't an excuse for lousy performance.
 
The way I see it, this team seems to have quit in them...probably due to youth. Randy just may be better suited for a team that already comes with bench leadership and motivation.

He may not be into the "One for the Gipper" type speeches and psychology. I doubt that he is.

For all I know, he may be a great coach, but just not the right guy for a young team who still need their hands held from time to time.

 
Highlander said:
No Shanahan cannot appear to be brash?he needs some time to sort it out. He may even wait till the end of the playoffs to do the hatchet job. Abrubt movement suggests panic and Shanahan realizes he has to press the no panic button.
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Agreed.  Plus you want to learn everything you can about the players from the coaching staff.  Whether they are to blame or not, they are going to know all the good and bad about each player and will be key to determining where the issues are within the group and who they need to get rid of.

Shanny/Nonis can take that info and then decide where it was coaching vs. player issues.  But there is a stack of issues on both piles.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Optimus Reimer said:
Unfortunately in a team culture and environment, the players have each others backs so when the criticism by a coach is unfair or without foundation, the rest of the players will take offence of that criticism.  On the other hand, if the criticism is fair and warranted, the players should be 'man enough' to take it and try to improve.
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There's still a massive difference between "taking offence" to a criticism and quitting. That's just a complete lack of professionalism. I don't buy that as a reason for the collapse but if it were then, yes, you should get rid of those players because anyone who would get that offended by some pretty mild words from Carlyle and think that, rather than attempt to address the issue constructively while still playing their best, they should just cash in and disappoint their paying customers isn't someone who I'd trust around the club in the future.

They're adults. Not liking your boss isn't an excuse for lousy performance.
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For sure. Criticism from the coaches is a daily event in the life of a player from the moment they started playing in leagues as a kid all the way up to the NHL. It would only get tougher the higher they goo too. If they make it to the big show they have more than learned to deal with it.

This whole "coach is mean and nasty and says mean things and throws everyone under the bus" stuff is just so not the reality of what it's like to be a professional hockey player.

You only need to watch 24/7 from past years to catch a glimpse of what it would be like.  Laviolette, Boudreau and Tortorella were all very tough on their players.
 
Corn Flake said:
For sure. Criticism from the coaches is a daily event in the life of a player from the moment they started playing in leagues as a kid all the way up to the NHL. It would only get tougher the higher they goo too. If they make it to the big show they have more than learned to deal with it.

This whole "coach is mean and nasty and says mean things and throws everyone under the bus" stuff is just so not the reality of what it's like to be a professional hockey player.

You only need to watch 24/7 from past years to catch a glimpse of what it would be like.  Laviolette, Boudreau and Tortorella were all very tough on their players.
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In Tortorella's case, his style of coaching apparently wore thin on the Rangers players and apparently many of them expressed that to their GM during exit interviews right before Tortorella was fired.  I think sometimes player's can just get sick of a personality/coaching style. 

They still appear to be a pretty successful/strong team so I don't think that's a sign of a room full of quitters either.
 
Potvin29 said:
Corn Flake said:
For sure. Criticism from the coaches is a daily event in the life of a player from the moment they started playing in leagues as a kid all the way up to the NHL. It would only get tougher the higher they goo too. If they make it to the big show they have more than learned to deal with it.

This whole "coach is mean and nasty and says mean things and throws everyone under the bus" stuff is just so not the reality of what it's like to be a professional hockey player.

You only need to watch 24/7 from past years to catch a glimpse of what it would be like.  Laviolette, Boudreau and Tortorella were all very tough on their players.
Click to expand...

In Tortorella's case, his style of coaching apparently wore thin on the Rangers players and apparently many of them expressed that to their GM during exit interviews right before Tortorella was fired.  I think sometimes player's can just get sick of a personality/coaching style. 

They still appear to be a pretty successful/strong team so I don't think that's a sign of a room full of quitters either.
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Oh no doubt. Tortorella is the far extreme. Carlyle is a softie compared to him, and so are most.  But same with Laviolette.. he is tough on the guys although unlike Torts has some self control, but only lasts 3 years max before players tune him out.

The point is that all coaches are tough on their players and will be blunt with criticism at times, no matter how they deliver the message... calm and collected or otherwise... players are used to it from day one playing hockey and don't "take offense" when they receive it.  The ones who are truly bothered by it would never make it to the NHL.
 
PPP did another good comparison of possession #'s under Wilson and Carlyle to try and gauge the potential impact that Carlyle has had on that aspect of the team: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2014/4/17/5618696/toronto-maple-leafs-wowys-randy-carlyle-edition

There's no other way to put this: Randy Carlyle has decimated the Toronto Maple Leafs possession not just on the team level, but also on the individual level.  Of the 14 players looked at in 11-12, four remained within 1% of their Corsi under Wilson after Carlyle took over: Grabovski, MacArthur, Gunnarsson, and Frattin.  The other ten players all saw their Corsi fell, often pretty dramatically.

The effect really becomes obvious the next year: not a single player had a higher Corsi in Randy Carlyle's first full season behind the bench (12-13) than they did under Ron Wilson the previous year.  Zero.  No players.  The average drop was 5.2%!

Amazingly, the effect actually continued this past season, as only one player in this group (Nikolai Kulemin) saw his Corsi % rise between 2012-13 and 2013-14.  It rose 0.6%.  The remaining 8 players all saw their Corsi % fall again.  This time the average drop was 1.6%.  That means the combined average drop for players who have stayed with the team since Ron Wilson coached is 6.8%. To give you some idea how insane that is, 6.8% is the gap between the league's best Corsi team this season (the LA Kings) and the 19th ranked Philadelphia Flyers.

"OK," you're thinking, "that sounds pretty bad.  But at least the worst is over.  Carlyle's coaching surely can't get any worse."  If only.  If only!  The Toronto Maple Leafs' Fenwick Close over the full 82 game season this year was 41.5%.  But over the last 30 games it's even lower: just 39.3%.  As bad as Carlyle's effect on possession has been, it's still getting worse.

As I said, there's no other way to put this except to say that Randy Carlyle has decimated the Leafs' possession numbers (and continues to do so).  The effect is virtually universal among players who have played for the Leafs, both those who have left like Clarke MacArthur and those who have stayed like Phil Kessel.  The effect is also clear at the team level.  And the effect is not minor: players who have been with the Leafs for the past three years have seen their Corsi % fall by 6.8% and it's still falling.

It's true that it's not possible to know for sure exactly how much of this can be pinned on Carlyle, but given the incredible consistency of the effect and the fact that everyone's numbers were better under Wilson and everyone's numbers rise when they leave the Leafs, it seems pretty clear that the bulk of this problem is coaching.  If that's not enough of a reason to fire Randy Carlyle, it's hard to imagine what would be.
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Won't be news to a lot of people of course, but always good to see the numbers continue to back it up (and pretty graphs too).
 
Corn Flake said:
Oh no doubt. Tortorella is the far extreme. Carlyle is a softie compared to him, and so are most.  But same with Laviolette.. he is tough on the guys although unlike Torts has some self control, but only lasts 3 years max before players tune him out.
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Obviously motivating players is more of an art than a science. The tough guy approach can work but it can also wear thin, same thing with the buddy-buddy style. I don't know if there's a way to know what will work until it's tried and when you look at the guys who have the records to back up their reputation at being great at it they all tend to be guys who seem to be able to find some sort of synthesis of your various approaches.
 
Deebo said:
RedLeaf said:
I have to believe that the longer Carlyle is left blowing in the wind, the better the chance he stays?.
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Maurice was fired more a month after the leafs last game in 2008.
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If Carlyle is not fired within a month of the draft I will be shocked.  I figure Nonis/Shanahan will want to give a new coach time to assess the players on the roster, figure out what he has and does not have, then try to fill what is lacking.  That would take at least a month to accomplish.   
 
Deebo said:
RedLeaf said:
I have to believe that the longer Carlyle is left blowing in the wind, the better the chance he stays?.
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Maurice was fired more a month after the leafs last game in 2008.
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Yeah. There's really no need to rush to it unless they have a specific candidate to replace him in mind and they want to ensure they get him - and, even then, they don't really have to officially fire Carlyle until they have the new guy under contract. If we get to the draft and, somehow Carlyle hasn't been fired, then, yeah, that might mean they're giving him another season, but, a few more days after the season when they've just hired a new president? Completely meaningless.
 
bustaheims said:
Deebo said:
RedLeaf said:
I have to believe that the longer Carlyle is left blowing in the wind, the better the chance he stays?.
Click to expand...

Maurice was fired more a month after the leafs last game in 2008.
Click to expand...

Yeah. There's really no need to rush to it unless they have a specific candidate to replace him in mind and they want to ensure they get him - and, even then, they don't really have to officially fire Carlyle until they have the new guy under contract. If we get to the draft and, somehow Carlyle hasn't been fired, then, yeah, that might mean they're giving him another season, but, a few more days after the season when they've just hired a new president? Completely meaningless.
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There's also talk that sometimes the NHL pushes for teams to wait to make announcements like this while the playoffs are going on.  Shanahan was probably different because of his role with the NHL, but otherwise I think they push teams to hold off.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Corn Flake said:
Oh no doubt. Tortorella is the far extreme. Carlyle is a softie compared to him, and so are most.  But same with Laviolette.. he is tough on the guys although unlike Torts has some self control, but only lasts 3 years max before players tune him out.
Click to expand...

Obviously motivating players is more of an art than a science. The tough guy approach can work but it can also wear thin, same thing with the buddy-buddy style. I don't know if there's a way to know what will work until it's tried and when you look at the guys who have the records to back up their reputation at being great at it they all tend to be guys who seem to be able to find some sort of synthesis of your various approaches.
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What style is Quenneville?  He has some qualities to last since 2008 with Chicago and has that penetrating stare...he comes across like a no-nonsense guy.
If I was one of his players I would run through hell and back out of fear.
 
Potvin29 said:
There's also talk that sometimes the NHL pushes for teams to wait to make announcements like this while the playoffs are going on.  Shanahan was probably different because of his role with the NHL, but otherwise I think they push teams to hold off.
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Especially when we're talking about a high profile team like the Leafs. Carlyle getting fired would get a lot more coverage than, say, Horachek losing his job in Florida or the Sabres deciding not to keep Ted Nolan around. After having just left the NHL head offices, you can be sure Shanahan is mindful of that and, he almost certainly won't be making any major announcements until there's at least a break in between rounds.
 
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