Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[Kin]

Only speaking to what we've seen with the Leafs. Guys in the same roles they had under Wilson are doing fine. Guys who've been moved into other roles haven't done as well. Maybe that's a problem with the players, maybe it's a communication problem.

But that's not really true of anyone who's seen their role expand, is it? The guys who have struggled have been the guys who were fairly ineffective under Carlyle for a time and then asked to do something different. I mean, it doens't invalidate their opinions but you know the guys who are most likely to be critical are the guys who get benched.

That's not to say Mac or Grabo were at fault, just that not everyone is going to fit in with a new coach. That was true of Wilson, it was true of Maurice, it was true of Quinn, it's fairly universal. I have no doubt, though, that a coach with a fairly abrasive personality is going to be on worse terms with those guys than one who isn't. I don't know if that says anything about effectiveness, though.

 

[Sudafederov]

I'm no fan of Carlyle, but this is whining. Make less mistakes, Clarke, then you won't get yelled at so much.

Maybe if it was isolated, but this is now Ryan, Lupul, Grabovski, MacArthur that we know of recently who have all had similar criticisms of his coaching/style.  It's not whining to respond to a reporter's question about Carlyle's coaching with your honest opinion of it.  Where's the whining?

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I'm out on the West Coast, so this is not surprising in the slightest, having closely watched his tenure in Anaheim. Again, this is not one player and one interview. It's his body of work that is doing the talking here. You can be a taskmaster and not destroy self esteem in the process which Randy seems pretty good at (regardless of the money the players are making).

He has changed his media relationship though. He used to show utter contempt for the media out in Anaheim. As mentioned, he's won a cup so that has afforded him a lot of leeway, but then again so has Bylsma.

 

[Stickytape]

They interviewed Gardiner during Flyers game during intermission, asking him what he thought of Carlyle, and he gave a pretty forced, diplomatic reply.  Not a lot of love their either.

 

[mr grieves]

That's not to say Mac or Grabo were at fault, just that not everyone is going to fit in with a new coach. That was true of Wilson, it was true of Maurice, it was true of Quinn, it's fairly universal. I have no doubt, though, that a coach with a fairly abrasive personality is going to be on worse terms with those guys than one who isn't. I don't know if that says anything about effectiveness, though.

Yeah, I don't know what it says about effectiveness really. MacArthur's reference to "other ways to do things" made me think of Reichel under Quinn. As the talent around him was upgraded, Reichel moved down the lineup. But he was still pretty effective in his role and the team had a pretty bottom 6 center. I don't know if he would've been that if Quinn were less of player's coach. But, if Quinn were less of a player's coach, I don't know that it would matter, in the end, if your fourth line center likes you very much. After all, Randy's got his Cup.

 

[Bender]

That's not to say Mac or Grabo were at fault, just that not everyone is going to fit in with a new coach. That was true of Wilson, it was true of Maurice, it was true of Quinn, it's fairly universal. I have no doubt, though, that a coach with a fairly abrasive personality is going to be on worse terms with those guys than one who isn't. I don't know if that says anything about effectiveness, though.

Yeah, I don't know what it says about effectiveness really. MacArthur's reference to "other ways to do things" made me think of Reichel under Quinn. As the talent around him was upgraded, Reichel moved down the lineup. But he was still pretty effective in his role and the team had a pretty bottom 6 center. I don't know if he would've been that if Quinn were less of player's coach. But, if Quinn were less of a player's coach, I don't know that it would matter, in the end, if your fourth line center likes you very much. After all, Randy's got his Cup.

Kinda what I was gonna say. Who cares what the individual player thinks. At the end of the day Carlyle got us in to the playoffs after, what, 9 years? Until he fails (aka alienates players that actually matter See: Kessel, Phil or misses the playoffs) then I could care less if certain employees dislike him. Winning is the only thing that matters.

Often I hear of Carlyle, "It wasn't fun anymore." Welcome to having a job.

 

[Boston Leaf]

Scotty Bowman was hated by many of the Canadians.. How did that work out? Enough of players needing to be coddled.. I don't  agree with my boss at work and not a big fan but I shut up and do my job

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Often I hear of Carlyle, "It wasn't fun anymore." Welcome to having a job.

Plenty of jobs are fun, and plenty require employees to enjoy themselves to perform their best.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Scotty Bowman was hated by many of the Canadians.. How did that work out? Enough of players needing to be coddled.. I don't  agree with my boss at work and not a big fan but I shut up and do my job

Cool.  Shall we go into all the differences between most employment and professional sports or....?

And MacArthur did shut up and do his job.  He's no longer employed by the Leafs, but he didn't say this while he was.

 

[Frank E]

Often I hear of Carlyle, "It wasn't fun anymore." Welcome to having a job.

Plenty of jobs are fun, and plenty require employees to enjoy themselves to perform their best.

Really?  Plenty? 

 

[Mot the Barber]

Just keep in mind that Carlyle's shtick has a shelf-life.  Kinda like how Keenan gets bounced around.  He also won a cup if you remember. 

And he won that cup because it always works the first time (the tough love approach).  But then players get wise to the coach's reputation and each subsequent gig is shorter and shorter.

Especially in this entitlement era with all these spoiled brats growing up.  Also the Leafs didn't make the playoffs because of Carlyle, they made the playoffs because of a goofball shortened season.  They didn't get a chance to have a colossal collapse...well not until game 7 vs Boston in the 1st round.

ooooooooohhh...too soon?

 

[TML fan]

I'm no fan of Carlyle, but this is whining. Make less mistakes, Clarke, then you won't get yelled at so much.

Maybe if it was isolated, but this is now Ryan, Lupul, Grabovski, MacArthur that we know of recently who have all had similar criticisms of his coaching/style.  It's not whining to respond to a reporter's question about Carlyle's coaching with your honest opinion of it.  Where's the whining?

That's 1 or 2 players per team out of the 23+ on a roster. Sorry, but that's isolated.

The whining is saying things like complaining about getting benched or I don't like getting yelled at. Maybe he should stop screwing up if he doesn't want to get yelled at?

Perhaps Ron Wilson ran his team like a country club and MacArthur got too comfortable?

 

[TML fan]

They interviewed Gardiner during Flyers game during intermission, asking him what he thought of Carlyle, and he gave a pretty forced, diplomatic reply.  Not a lot of love their either.

Yeah, well Gardiner has a long way to go, and his talent will only carry him so far.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I'm no fan of Carlyle, but this is whining. Make less mistakes, Clarke, then you won't get yelled at so much.

Maybe if it was isolated, but this is now Ryan, Lupul, Grabovski, MacArthur that we know of recently who have all had similar criticisms of his coaching/style.  It's not whining to respond to a reporter's question about Carlyle's coaching with your honest opinion of it.  Where's the whining?

That's 1 or 2 players per team out of the 23+ on a roster. Sorry, but that's isolated.

The whining is saying things like complaining about getting benched or I don't like getting yelled at. Maybe he should stop screwing up if he doesn't want to get yelled at?

Perhaps Ron Wilson ran his team like a country club and MacArthur got too comfortable?

Yeah and his way of running the team certainly did work. I mean look at all those playoff series his Leaf teams won. What? You're kidding? They didn't win any? Okay well certainly they made the playoffs. Seriously? Not even the playoffs. Hmmmmm well at least Clarke was getting treated nicely and was having fun.

Give me a f'n break. So despite Clarke having a bad season, the benching was the bully coaches fault?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm no fan of Carlyle, but this is whining. Make less mistakes, Clarke, then you won't get yelled at so much.

Maybe if it was isolated, but this is now Ryan, Lupul, Grabovski, MacArthur that we know of recently who have all had similar criticisms of his coaching/style.  It's not whining to respond to a reporter's question about Carlyle's coaching with your honest opinion of it.  Where's the whining?

That's 1 or 2 players per team out of the 23+ on a roster. Sorry, but that's isolated.

The whining is saying things like complaining about getting benched or I don't like getting yelled at. Maybe he should stop screwing up if he doesn't want to get yelled at?

Perhaps Ron Wilson ran his team like a country club and MacArthur got too comfortable?

Yeah and his way of running the team certainly did work. I mean look at all those playoff series his Leaf teams won. What? You're kidding? They didn't win any? Okay well certainly they made the playoffs. Seriously? Not even the playoffs. Hmmmmm well at least Clarke was getting treated nicely and was having fun.

Give me a f'n break. So despite Clarke having a bad season, the benching was the bully coaches fault?

Wilson would have made the playoffs in a 48 game season if he ever got anywhere near the level of netminding that Carlyle has received from Reimer and now Bernier.  Reimer was at that level with Wilson coaching until he suffered his concussion.  Otherwise, he was stuck with the worst goaltending tandems in the league.

Where does he say that?  He says he was upset at hearing nothing but criticism from Carlyle and then being scratched in the playoffs.  He didn't even have a bad season - perhaps marginally down from his previous season's paces but that could just be an anomaly due to the shortened season.  Why can't a player object to that?  The coach isn't automatically right and the player deserving of sarcastic barbs for making legitimate gripes.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Often I hear of Carlyle, "It wasn't fun anymore." Welcome to having a job.

Plenty of jobs are fun, and plenty require employees to enjoy themselves to perform their best.

Really?  Plenty?

Tons and tons of jobs in the tourism sector and sports sector where you have fun at your job and if you didn't would result in poor job performance.  Having fun doesn't mean not doing your job, either.  I'm sure there could be a nice list drawn up of jobs, but those areas are off the top of my head.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm no fan of Carlyle, but this is whining. Make less mistakes, Clarke, then you won't get yelled at so much.

Maybe if it was isolated, but this is now Ryan, Lupul, Grabovski, MacArthur that we know of recently who have all had similar criticisms of his coaching/style.  It's not whining to respond to a reporter's question about Carlyle's coaching with your honest opinion of it.  Where's the whining?

That's 1 or 2 players per team out of the 23+ on a roster. Sorry, but that's isolated.

The whining is saying things like complaining about getting benched or I don't like getting yelled at. Maybe he should stop screwing up if he doesn't want to get yelled at?

Perhaps Ron Wilson ran his team like a country club and MacArthur got too comfortable?

How many players rip coaches?  Hardly any - if 1 does it is a big deal.  This is multiple players all within a few years of each other all saying similar things.  That is not isolated - maybe if we were talking about something that was a more common occurrence but publicly criticizing a coach is not.

He never said I don't like getting yelled at.  He said he didn't like a constant stream of nothing but criticism, something which done continuously wore on him.  Much like I can imagine I would feel if it happened to me at my job every day.  Why should every player be expected to react the same to interactions?  They're all different people, just like some players can handle intense media attention and some can't.

Are we just appealing to Carlyle's authority?  If you say "he should stop screwing up" it sounds like it, but apologies if not.  Carlyle made many questionable roster decisions.  All players screw up, and there are very legitimate questions concerning Carlyle's use and marginalization offensively of certain players.  I don't see how his questioning this is whining and not giving his honest assessment of where he was at mentally and how he viewed the situation.  And even if it is, whatever, it's valid criticisms and I guess would be treated much differently if it had been said by a player during Wilson's tenure.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Scotty Bowman was hated by many of the Canadians.. How did that work out? Enough of players needing to be coddled.. I don't  agree with my boss at work and not a big fan but I shut up and do my job

Bowman had been called a "master motivator and psychologist".  He knew just what to do and say to gel the best out of his players.  And no, he wasn't particularly well-liked.

Of course, this was a different era during a time when players' salaries were not astronomical and the style of the game differed, along with the types of players of that era and their personalities & characteristic in their approach to the game.

 

[sneakyray]

Scotty Bowman was hated by many of the Canadians.. How did that work out? Enough of players needing to be coddled.. I don't  agree with my boss at work and not a big fan but I shut up and do my job

Bowman had been called a "master motivator and psychologist".  He knew just what to do and say to gel the best out of his players.  And no, he wasn't particularly well-liked.

Of course, this was a different era during a time when players' salaries were not astronomical and the style of the game differed, along with the types of players of that era and their personalities & characteristic in their approach to the game.

in 02 he won the cup with detroit...with a 66 million dollar payroll and the likes of hull, robitaille, yzerman, lidstrom, shannahan.

I know shanahan was pissed at him and it was well documented at the time.  anyways...just wanted to say that salaries were astronomical as that team would be over today's cap 11 years ago.

cheers

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I'm no fan of Carlyle, but this is whining. Make less mistakes, Clarke, then you won't get yelled at so much.

Maybe if it was isolated, but this is now Ryan, Lupul, Grabovski, MacArthur that we know of recently who have all had similar criticisms of his coaching/style.  It's not whining to respond to a reporter's question about Carlyle's coaching with your honest opinion of it.  Where's the whining?

That's 1 or 2 players per team out of the 23+ on a roster. Sorry, but that's isolated.

The whining is saying things like complaining about getting benched or I don't like getting yelled at. Maybe he should stop screwing up if he doesn't want to get yelled at?

Perhaps Ron Wilson ran his team like a country club and MacArthur got too comfortable?

Yeah and his way of running the team certainly did work. I mean look at all those playoff series his Leaf teams won. What? You're kidding? They didn't win any? Okay well certainly they made the playoffs. Seriously? Not even the playoffs. Hmmmmm well at least Clarke was getting treated nicely and was having fun.

Give me a f'n break. So despite Clarke having a bad season, the benching was the bully coaches fault?

Wilson would have made the playoffs in a 48 game season if he ever got anywhere near the level of netminding that Carlyle has received from Reimer and now Bernier.  Reimer was at that level with Wilson coaching until he suffered his concussion.  Otherwise, he was stuck with the worst goaltending tandems in the league.

Where does he say that?  He says he was upset at hearing nothing but criticism from Carlyle and then being scratched in the playoffs.  He didn't even have a bad season - perhaps marginally down from his previous season's paces but that could just be an anomaly due to the shortened season.  Why can't a player object to that?  The coach isn't automatically right and the player deserving of sarcastic barbs for making legitimate gripes.

Again you're assuming things that we simply don't know to prove your point. What we definitely do know is that Wilson's teams did not make the playoffs. We can't say a whole bunch of ifs other than "if Wilson's teams won more games they would of made the playoffs." The rest of your "what ifs" shots in the dark.

As for Clarke MacArthur, he stated that getting scratched in the playoffs was the last straw. He states that he tired of getting told what he did wrong.  He said some people can take the criticism while others can't. I'm just glad that the ones that can take the criticism are the good players like Phil. Heck even Kadri has taken it well.

I could care less if a 3rd liner who had one half decent season 3 years ago and has been declining since feels he was mistreated or that the big mean coach kept telling him what he did wrong.

 

[Frank E]

Often I hear of Carlyle, "It wasn't fun anymore." Welcome to having a job.

Plenty of jobs are fun, and plenty require employees to enjoy themselves to perform their best.

Really?  Plenty?

Tons and tons of jobs in the tourism sector and sports sector where you have fun at your job and if you didn't would result in poor job performance.  Having fun doesn't mean not doing your job, either.  I'm sure there could be a nice list drawn up of jobs, but those areas are off the top of my head.

I think you mentioned comparables in a previous post...pro-sports is a performance based business.  It's all-out effort, and pushing hard, and if you don't perform at a great level, someone else is right behind you to take your job.  That's not always fun, and it's certainly not a day at the office of a tour guide at Disney World.

There's a pretty long list of successful coaches that were hard-assed that players generally disliked.