Steve Stamkos?
- Thread starter sickbeast
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KadriFan said:
I disagree... As someone that has come to these forums for years for intelligent and informative discussion about the Leafs, I feel Nik's posts consistently provide that. What's not appealing is posters being called "downers" because they discuss a more realistic outlook on the team.
sniper55 said:
But this is a hockey site, not a university level debating form. Many fans and even players lack debating, spelling and especially grammar skills. Does this mean they should be ridiculed and made feel like idiots for simply voicing an opinion? I think not!!! Didn't used to like this....used to be fun.
herman
Well-known member
McGarnagle said:Not that there's a problem, because the complaint is just holier than thou garbage, but the site really could benefit by naming Herman a moderator.
Just one group B jerk's opinion.
That's mighty kind of you, McGarnagle; mods here do a good job already. Many members help maintain order in the community and I've had the pleasure of seeing people stand up for one another.
This conversation looks like it's been brewing for years, and highlights how the environment here is a mutual responsibility; we are only here by the grace of the site's purveyors and our love of the Leafs.
KadriFan said:
I didn't say that you needed university level English classes to have interesting discussions. Saying "all of our players are great, and anyone that doesn't agree with that are downers", doesn't create that kind of "debate".
Nobody should be ridiculed for their opinion, but at the same time, if you're going to call others downers (I don't mean you in particular, just an example) because they don't share the same opinion, then of course those posts are going to be more criticized than others.
louisstamos
Active member
Still better than HFboards or the Facebook page comments:
Fan #1: "If the Leafs get Stamkos, they're going to win the cup year!!!"
Fan #2: "I mean, anything can happen, but the stats don't back it up."
Fan #1: "Yeah, well, you're a f*****."
This site has kind of always had a higher level of discourse on it, even when I was here back in the day. Part of the reason I got into advanced stats in the last couple years was because of posters on this website suggesting it. There's no swearing and no name calling - but you have to be prepared to have your opinion challenged, and not taking it personally if it is. Not everyone agrees on everything.
Anyhoo, back to the topic at hand - I'm still on team Stamkos. I don't think he interferes with the long term vision of the team. The Leafs can keep stockpiling picks and using them to draft talent/make trades to build this team. But the question is, does Stamkos want to come here knowing that it may not be a playoff team the first 2-3 years he's here?
Fan #1: "If the Leafs get Stamkos, they're going to win the cup year!!!"
Fan #2: "I mean, anything can happen, but the stats don't back it up."
Fan #1: "Yeah, well, you're a f*****."
This site has kind of always had a higher level of discourse on it, even when I was here back in the day. Part of the reason I got into advanced stats in the last couple years was because of posters on this website suggesting it. There's no swearing and no name calling - but you have to be prepared to have your opinion challenged, and not taking it personally if it is. Not everyone agrees on everything.
Anyhoo, back to the topic at hand - I'm still on team Stamkos. I don't think he interferes with the long term vision of the team. The Leafs can keep stockpiling picks and using them to draft talent/make trades to build this team. But the question is, does Stamkos want to come here knowing that it may not be a playoff team the first 2-3 years he's here?
louisstamos said:
Agreed - for me it boils down to 2 factors For me to consider signing Stamkos. First, as you say, the Leafs need to stick with the rebuild plan - we need Stamkos on board with another bottom 5 finish or two. There are ways to accomplish this even with Stamkos, Matthews, Marner et al joining the team.
Second, he needs to come at the Leafs price. This is the over riding factor for me. There is a price I would pay and a price I wouldn't.
If any management team can convince him of these, I'm hoping it's this Leafs management team.
Britishbulldog
Active member
sniper55 said:
Don't get distracted by the 'downers' point and lose the fact that is being shared here. Recently it has been better but overall typically the mocking, belittling, etc has been pathetic over the last few years.
Being on this site for many, many years I can say that I have seen the community here lose some great posters in exchange for arrogant ones that try to nit pick every sentence or even words to create a counter point when someone is looking to share a basic thought. Simple as that.
If you haven't noticed that when some hockey fans have tried to post some ideas they have... then good for you. If you are saying it doesn't happen here then you are naive so brace yourself for when it does happen to you.
bustaheims
Active member
I do miss the days when relying on facts and truth wasn't considered nit picking.
Redleaf
Active member
Britishbulldog said:
Couldn't agree more. I see a few respondents feel like they are being called out here. I think people in general know who you are. It would be nice to have everyone get along better on this board. It can be a great place to share thoughts and opinions about our Leafs.
herman
Well-known member
pmrules said:
I was thinking this early on as well. "I hope Stamkos doesn't mind not winning everything for the first couple of years..." and "I hope he can still perform to even 75% of his peak by the time we're contending...".
Now... I don't think that'd be a fair position to put Stamkos into. It's not quite the same as Babcock coming on board at the ground floor of the rebuild and not winning: his task was to establish a strategy and structure and dressing room befitting a championship team, which is entirely possible to do without all your horses hooked up. I can't see Stamkos coming onto the Leafs and not pushing them into a near playoff position, which would be like the last few years of Sundin all over again.
Some might say our current core is good enough, we don't need to get anyone else, to which I will have to point to our 30th place finish without Stamkos. How much can one player do? I think he would do a lot; I don't think he is magic though.
Some might say: we can keep building patiently after getting Stamkos because he is still very young and would be good for developing the upcoming players. Perhaps I lack imagination, but the way I see it, if you spring for Stamkos, you're basically saying you're all in, and you have to go out and acquire better defense and a premiere goalie to make Stamkos worth the expenditure (see 2013, 2015 Jays). The best way to acquire premier players quickly is through UFA and trading your prospects to teams on the rebuild. Unfortunately, that is also the best way to ruin your rebuild. I cannot see us being able to have both Stamkos and a rebuild.
If you want to wind up for a good long championship drive every year for a decade, your build has to have the stamina required: i.e. your salary structure has to be focused in the right areas and timed for efficiency to get the most value in performance for the dollars spent.
I think you are right on target with your post.herman said:
The other issue that I have if Stamkos gets signed is the Matthews factor.Both are centers,I'm sure Stamkos if signed will want to be the 1st line center,which could fly for one or two years,but if Matthews is the center of the future,this may not work out well.
The other problem I see is Stammer is worth 10 million per,but the Leafs if they decide to sign him have to get him for much less,to make their future work with the younger players coming on and the salary cap in the years to come may go down from where it is now.
I would stay away from him.
Kin
New member
jdh1 said:
Yeah, this highlights something that I think really hasn't been touched on enough. I'd really want to know a lot more about his apparent issues in Tampa before I was too gung-ho there. If it was just that he doesn't like Cooper, whatever. If it's that he doesn't like Cooper because Cooper put him on the second line or asked him to play wing...that's concerning.
bustaheims
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
Agreed, as I think, ultimately, on the wing is where Stamkos would end up in the long-run.
herman
Well-known member
Nik the Trik said:
That's a good point, jdh1. While I believe Matthews ought to be the 1C, he strikes me as a team-first type of player that will do whatever the coaches say anyway, so a sticking point for Stamkos in Tampa wouldn't necessarily be a problem on the Leafs, per se.
I see Stamkos as a triggerman winger too (Ovechkin minus the wrecking ball mentality).
A lot of the character benefit of having Stamkos on the team is also covered by Kadri being there. Drafted by the Leafs with their 1st round pick, he's been through every up and down in recent memory, had all the expectations heaped on him, and survived to succeed in the Leafs' upcoming renaissance. He has also matured enough to the point where he has the humility to accept the roles Babcock gives him (and values him for). He won't ever be relied upon to be the sole points producer in the final build; only to drive play in the right direction and stifle the opposing team with relentless puck possession (Bergeron-lite?).
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