The Brian Burke Thread

[Kin]

Right so Shero came in with a stack cupboard full of elite talent and went on to oversee another bad year where he picked up the 2nd overall pick in Jordan Staal.

Right, so the situations are almost entirely dissimilar and the comparison sheds basically no light on how Burke has done. Glad we cleared that up.

  With lack of patience in this organization, we could never tank and be last or near last in the league for 3yrs in order to get such elite prospects.

I disagree. It would just take a very competent GM to do it.

  Also in Pittsburgh's favor was the fact that there were elite players available in the draft years where they tanked.

For the most part there are elite players available every year.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Which would you rather have...
Beauchemin, Sequin, Dougie Hamilton, and Jared Knight or
Lupul, Kessel, and Gardiner?  Burke has made amends.

Well, A, I'd rather have Hamilton, Seguin and Knight and only in part because of their controllable years but, more importantly, this is an argument that doesn't hold even to an internal logic. Either Kessel/Lupul were good additions to the team or, absent those trades, their draft position would be higher, not lower or the same.

Throw in the Cap implications and it's not even close. Kessel and Lupul already take up 9-10 M and could be due around 12M on their next contracts if they even stay. Seguin, Hamilton and Knight will not only be controllable, but will only take up around 5M total for the next couple years.

It's all good and fine to say we have Kessel and Lupul but in a couple years we could be saying who would you rather have: Gardiner or Seguin, Hamilton and Knight.

No matter how good one tries to make this deal look, it always looks like a complete and utter dog.

 

[maplesyrup]

If I were a Bruins fan * shudders * I might be as happy (if not more so) about Hamilton as I was with Seguin.

Edit: Though I still like Burke. Even the best GMs make mistakes.

 

[Frank E]

In looking at the capgeek chart, it does look like this year is a "clearout" year for this team...doesn't it look like the rebuild starts next summer?

http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=4

I mean, sure, if the idea is that you're going to rebuild with cap dollars.

Acknowledged.

I'm just suggesting that it looks more like they could start the process this season.  This, of course, would mean that we're looking at a good 3 or 4 years of playoff-free Springs.

I'm up for it if MLSE is. 

Burke's talk of shying away from UFAs this summer would lend to this proposition.   

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

In looking at the capgeek chart, it does look like this year is a "clearout" year for this team...doesn't it look like the rebuild starts next summer?

http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=4

I mean, sure, if the idea is that you're going to rebuild with cap dollars.

Acknowledged.

I'm just suggesting that it looks more like they could start the process this season.  This, of course, would mean that we're looking at a good 3 or 4 years of playoff-free Springs.

I'm up for it if MLSE is. 

Burke's talk of shying away from UFAs this summer would lend to this proposition. 

I don't disagree with this, but for me it needs to go hand in hand with trading our best assets for maximum return. I'd move Kessel (moreso because of dollars committed than age), Lupul, Liles, Grabbo and any asset that would get a decent return.

Forget players in return, but as many 1sts as we could get. I'd also try and get as many FA's as possible, and look to deal them within 2 years (if they wouldn't be in their prime when the team would be a contender).

If we're now in a serious re-build mode, let's do the thing properly.

 

[Frank E]

In looking at the capgeek chart, it does look like this year is a "clearout" year for this team...doesn't it look like the rebuild starts next summer?

http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=4

I mean, sure, if the idea is that you're going to rebuild with cap dollars.

Acknowledged.

I'm just suggesting that it looks more like they could start the process this season.  This, of course, would mean that we're looking at a good 3 or 4 years of playoff-free Springs.

I'm up for it if MLSE is. 

Burke's talk of shying away from UFAs this summer would lend to this proposition. 

I don't disagree with this, but for me it needs to go hand in hand with trading our best assets for maximum return. I'd move Kessel (moreso because of dollars committed than age), Lupul, Liles, Grabbo and any asset that would get a decent return.

Forget players in return, but as many 1sts as we could get. I'd also try and get as many FA's as possible, and look to deal them within 2 years (if they wouldn't be in their prime when the team would be a contender).

If we're now in a serious re-build mode, let's do the thing properly.

Well, you've still got to ice a team and hit the floor.  Pick the guys you want around in 4 or 5 years...

 

[slapshot]

Which would you rather have...
Beauchemin, Sequin, Dougie Hamilton, and Jared Knight or
Lupul, Kessel, and Gardiner?  Burke has made amends.

Well, A, I'd rather have Hamilton, Seguin and Knight and only in part because of their controllable years but, more importantly, this is an argument that doesn't hold even to an internal logic. Either Kessel/Lupul were good additions to the team or, absent those trades, their draft position would be higher, not lower or the same.

Throw in the Cap implications and it's not even close. Kessel and Lupul already take up 9-10 M and could be due around 12M on their next contracts if they even stay. Seguin, Hamilton and Knight will not only be controllable, but will only take up around 5M total for the next couple years.

It's all good and fine to say we have Kessel and Lupul but in a couple years we could be saying who would you rather have: Gardiner or Seguin, Hamilton and Knight.

No matter how good one tries to make this deal look, it always looks like a complete and utter dog.

Hindsight is always 20-20. It's easy to criticize after the fact. No one would have predicted the Leafs crashing as bad as they did that year, so Boston just lucked out on the number 2 pick. As for Hamilton, give Boston credit with making a nice pick. Several teams ahead of them could have taken him but didn't.
I have no problem with the Kessel deal,  if he had traded for something that turned out to be a Pat Falloon or Alexander Daigle well yeah. But Kessel is a high quality player, probably worth two average mid-round firsts and a second. That Boston fared as well as they did, no one could have predicted. Overall, the Leafs have more decent assets, youth and talent than the direction they were going. Unlikely the vast majority, I don't have him on as short a lease. I think if we stick with the plan, another 2-3 years we are going to be solid for years to come.

 

[Kin]

That Boston fared as well as they did, no one could have predicted.

People did! Right here! On this very board!

Anyone with half a brain and a third of an eye could have. The #1 goalie was Vesa effin' Toskala. Their leading scorer was Jason Blake. It's a miracle they didn't finish 40th.

 

[TML fan]

If I were a Bruins fan * shudders * I might be as happy (if not more so) about Hamilton as I was with Seguin.

Edit: Though I still like Burke. Even the best GMs make mistakes.

They'd probably have been just as happy with Kessel.

 

[Jalili]

If I were a Bruins fan * shudders * I might be as happy (if not more so) about Hamilton as I was with Seguin.

Edit: Though I still like Burke. Even the best GMs make mistakes.

Nah, hamiltons no good man

 

[maplesyrup]

I happen to think he's bananas.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Which would you rather have...
Beauchemin, Sequin, Dougie Hamilton, and Jared Knight or
Lupul, Kessel, and Gardiner?  Burke has made amends.

Well, A, I'd rather have Hamilton, Seguin and Knight and only in part because of their controllable years but, more importantly, this is an argument that doesn't hold even to an internal logic. Either Kessel/Lupul were good additions to the team or, absent those trades, their draft position would be higher, not lower or the same.

Throw in the Cap implications and it's not even close. Kessel and Lupul already take up 9-10 M and could be due around 12M on their next contracts if they even stay. Seguin, Hamilton and Knight will not only be controllable, but will only take up around 5M total for the next couple years.

It's all good and fine to say we have Kessel and Lupul but in a couple years we could be saying who would you rather have: Gardiner or Seguin, Hamilton and Knight.

No matter how good one tries to make this deal look, it always looks like a complete and utter dog.

Hindsight is always 20-20. It's easy to criticize after the fact. No one would have predicted the Leafs crashing as bad as they did that year, so Boston just lucked out on the number 2 pick. As for Hamilton, give Boston credit with making a nice pick. Several teams ahead of them could have taken him but didn't.
I have no problem with the Kessel deal,  if he had traded for something that turned out to be a Pat Falloon or Alexander Daigle well yeah. But Kessel is a high quality player, probably worth two average mid-round firsts and a second. That Boston fared as well as they did, no one could have predicted. Overall, the Leafs have more decent assets, youth and talent than the direction they were going. Unlikely the vast majority, I don't have him on as short a lease. I think if we stick with the plan, another 2-3 years we are going to be solid for years to come.

I'm having a hard time agreeing with this. The year we acquired Kessel we were far from being a team that was anywhere near a sure thing for the playoffs. Our top 9 was Stajan/Poni/Grabbo/Kuli/Stempniak/Blake/Hagman/Bozak/Mitchell. Our D was Kabs/Schenn/Gunner/Finger/Komi/Beauch.

We sucked and had the potential to finish as high as 9th (and that was hoping everybody played as well as they could) and IMO as low as last in the league. Our forwards well small, weak and the equivalent of most teams 3rd/4th liners.

The fact that Burke traded financially secure, and potentially high level assets (why are other GM's reluctant to trade 1st let alone 2?) for a talented winger, that would not put this team over the top, let alone into the playoffs, is well, a bit mind boggling.

If Burke couldn't see the possibility of that roster finishing near the bottom of the league with Kessel on board then I question his judgement of talent.

 

[bustaheims]

If I were a Bruins fan * shudders * I might be as happy (if not more so) about Hamilton as I was with Seguin.

Edit: Though I still like Burke. Even the best GMs make mistakes.

That really remains to be seen. While Hamilton will probably be a nice player, I have my doubts he'll be anywhere close to what some have hyped him up to be, and, it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't really make an impact in the NHL for another 5 years. He's a big defenceman. They take a long time to develop. It also won't shock me if, when he does make an impact, he's playing somewhere other than Boston.

 

[maplesyrup]

If I were a Bruins fan * shudders * I might be as happy (if not more so) about Hamilton as I was with Seguin.

Edit: Though I still like Burke. Even the best GMs make mistakes.

That really remains to be seen. While Hamilton will probably be a nice player, I have my doubts he'll be anywhere close to what some have hyped him up to be, and, it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't really make an impact in the NHL for another 5 years. He's a big defenceman. They take a long time to develop. It also won't shock me if, when he does make an impact, he's playing somewhere other than Boston.

Well, like you say, it remains to be seen. I'm very high on him.

 

[bustaheims]

Well, like you say, it remains to be seen. I'm very high on him.

While I'll admit, I haven't seen a ton of him, when I have, I certainly did not come away all that impressed. I think, when it's all said and done, he'll be more Hal Gill than Zdeno Chara, and that his brother will prove to be the better player.

 

[Kin]

Hal Gill, Zdeno Chara, whoever. He's still not who the Leafs traded.

 

[maplesyrup]

True. That pick could have been anybody.

 

[bustaheims]

Hal Gill, Zdeno Chara, whoever. He's still not who the Leafs traded.

Well, yes, there's that aspect as well. And, there's a very good chance that he wouldn't have been who the Leafs would have drafted with that pick.

 

[Brian Glennie]

If I were a Bruins fan * shudders * I might be as happy (if not more so) about Hamilton as I was with Seguin.

Edit: Though I still like Burke. Even the best GMs make mistakes.

They'd probably have been just as happy with Kessel.

I disagree. They felt he was the wrong player for the cap-space he was going to take up.

 

[TML fan]

If I were a Bruins fan * shudders * I might be as happy (if not more so) about Hamilton as I was with Seguin.

Edit: Though I still like Burke. Even the best GMs make mistakes.

They'd probably have been just as happy with Kessel.

I disagree. They felt he was the wrong player for the cap-space he was going to take up.

I don't completely disagree with that, but I was talking about the fans.