What's wrong with Schenn?

[Bates]

Again being the best of a group that is the worse in the entire league is prob not a good stat to use when claiming someone is good.  It would be like saying Toskala was a good goalie because he played the most for the Leafs.

 

[Kin]

Again being the best of a group that is the worse in the entire league is prob not a good stat to use when claiming someone is good.  It would be like saying Toskala was a good goalie because he played the most for the Leafs.

Leaving aside that I don't think the Leafs have the worst group of defensive defensemen in the league, I'm not entirely sure you understand what I'm saying here.

 

[Bates]

I do understand Nik.  You are saying that Schenn is a good defenceman who has earned time on the pk by being one of the Leaf's best defencemen over a period of time.  I get that. But using his pk time as an endorcement of him actually kinda shows a flaw as our pk is terrible and Luke is a big part of it.

 

[Bates]

I should also clarify that I think Luke is a decent nhl d-man but if he wants to be a first line pairing he is really gonna have to do some work on his speed.  This game gets faster every year and Luke seems to be getting left behind.

 

[Kin]

I do understand Nik.  You are saying that Schenn is a good defenceman who has earned time on the pk by being one of the Leaf's best defencemen over a period of time.

No, you don't and no, I'm not.

But using his pk time as an endorcement of him actually kinda shows a flaw as our pk is terrible and Luke is a big part of it.

Again, this is a perfect example of looking at superficial stats at NHL.com and drawing facile and easily disputed conclusions. If you watched the Leafs over that span you can separate the Leafs performance on the PK, which has included terrible goaltending and sub-sub-sub par defensive forwards, and Schenn's individual performance and as someone who's been here over that span something we heard virtually none of in that span was "You know what the problem is with the PK? Luke Schenn"

 

[Bates]

I don't think I've heard any individual other thatn a goalie ever mentioned as being the pk problem.  What about Luke's speed? Do you see that as a concern?  Think it can be changed or would being more positionally sound also solve that?  Do you see him as 1st pairing? 2nd?

 

[Bates]

Not trying to goad you by the way.  It is very hard to decifer the play of individual player while watching on tv.  Camera tends to only follow puck so hard to tell positional play of other players.

 

[Kin]

I don't think I've heard any individual other thatn a goalie ever mentioned as being the pk problem.

I think guys have been singled out when they specifically cause/contribute to a goal on the PK. Komisarek, for instance, has been specifically noted for his poor play there. 

What about Luke's speed? Do you see that as a concern? Think it can be changed or would being more positionally sound also solve that?

He's looked slower this season, no doubt about it. Is that a problem? Well, it's not good. It's not a killer though. There are quite a few big, slow stay-at-home defensemen that have been successful post-lockout.

Can it be changed? I think it's obvious that it can. He's been faster in the past and unless the team is hiding a debilitating knee injury from us there's no reason to think a 22 year old can't change the training habits that have led him to being bulkier and slower.

  Do you see him as 1st pairing? 2nd?

I don't know I see that as especially important. Schenn's success is going to be measured by his ice-time which can be indicative of what pairing he's on but isn't necessarily. Who he's paired with is going to depend on who he's going to find chemistry with and who else the Leafs have on the blue-line above him.

Adam Foote, as an example, wasn't always on the first pairing in Colorado. But he was logging heavy minutes, playing against top offensive players and doing well in both respects. I think Schenn can do that because we've seen him do that. Do I think he can still be Adam Foote? Probably. Will he step it up to Stevens-levels? Probably not but that was always a long shot.

 

[Bates]

I think we would all be very happy with a Foote type for Luke.

 

[Corn Flake]

I wonder if Schenn is having eyesight issues again.  Something was wrong with his vision two years ago that was apparently corrected with a contact lens... he had similar performance issues back then too.

A little bit of detail on it from 2010:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/nhl/mapleleafs/article/863059--cox-luke-schenn-ready-to-shine

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I wonder if Schenn is having eyesight issues again.  Something was wrong with his vision two years ago that was apparently corrected with a contact lens... he had similar performance issues back then too.

A little bit of detail on it from 2010:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/nhl/mapleleafs/article/863059--cox-luke-schenn-ready-to-shine

It's a good guess, rather than him just being a bad defenseman now. There is something obviously going on for him.

I'm not overly worried about him, as I've seen enough of him that I know what he can do, however, I do hope they help him out and he gets back to being our most solid guy back there.

 

[Corn Flake]

I wonder if Schenn is having eyesight issues again.  Something was wrong with his vision two years ago that was apparently corrected with a contact lens... he had similar performance issues back then too.

A little bit of detail on it from 2010:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/nhl/mapleleafs/article/863059--cox-luke-schenn-ready-to-shine

It's a good guess, rather than him just being a bad defenseman now. There is something obviously going on for him.

I'm not overly worried about him, as I've seen enough of him that I know what he can do, however, I do hope they help him out and he gets back to being our most solid guy back there.

I agree. He will get it back, but he's going to have to somehow avoid this type of swoon in the future.  Can't have iffy starts or long stretches of bad play every year.  Still very young, but much is expected. 

Funny thing, if Komisarek wasn't playing as (relatively) well as he is, this team would be in big trouble without a stable #4.  If Both Komi and Schenn were bad at the same time - uuuuuuugly.

 

[Kin]

The problem with an eyesight centred explanation for Schenn's struggles is that it wouldn't really explain the marked decline in his foot speed which I think has been correctly identified as the biggest change to his game. If the issue were positioning or reaction time, sure, but I'm not sure it explains this particularly.

If I had to guess, and I'm not super inclined to, I'd imagine it still relates to the extra bulk he put on.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Funny thing, if Komisarek wasn't playing as (relatively) well as he is, this team would be in big trouble without a stable #4.  If Both Komi and Schenn were bad at the same time - uuuuuuugly.

I've thought about that, however, it's unfortunately not just that though. The Leafs overall defensive acumen, or lack there of, is quite troubling. If they want to be in the top half of the league for an extended period of time, they're simply going to have to clean up these problems in their end that we keep seeing game in and game out.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

If I had to guess, and I'm not super inclined to, I'd imagine it still relates to the extra bulk he put on.

I agree that that is probably a large part of what is going on, however, I have seen the hesitation and positioning problems as well. It could be a combination of a few things going on for this guy.
Schenn was never the best skater, but he got by and made it work for him, so adding a few pounds will definitely change how he moves out there. Maybe he'll eventually have to lose some weight to improve his game, much like Kadri did.

I do believe there is something else there though.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

Funny thing, if Komisarek wasn't playing as (relatively) well as he is, this team would be in big trouble without a stable #4.  If Both Komi and Schenn were bad at the same time - uuuuuuugly.

I've thought about that, however, it's unfortunately not just that though. The Leafs overall defensive acumen, or lack there of, is quite troubling. If they want to be in the top half of the league for an extended period of time, they're simply going to have to clean up these problems in their end that we keep seeing game in and game out.

The Leafs have some very decent d-men, the problem lies more in the system that Wilson uses.  Opposing player has puck in corner, Leafs d-man covers him and the Leafs winger migrates between the corner and the end boards.  Opposing forward passes puck to point man, Leafs winger has to skate back to the point to try to block the shot, but can't get there in time.  If the point man passes the puck to the other point man, the Leafs other winger is not covering that point man.         

The Leafs need to have better and harder 1 on 1 coverage to make it tougher on opposing teams to manouevre in the Leafs end.

 

[Number 5]

For a couple of years now, folks have been saying that it's not the system, it's that the players we have had aren't smart enough to play it.

 

[cw]

As good as Gardiner has been, I think he'd be a tough partner to play with right now. His skating has helped him recover but as a partner, he's not always in the best position to receive an outlet pass for example. That was a gigantic area I feel Kaberle helped Schenn with. Tomas made it fairly easy for Schenn to dump him the puck and that allowed Schenn to play a 'simple' game.

It reminded me of Aki Berg trying to play with Wade Belak a little. Obviously, different talents involved. But often, Belak's partners took the fall trying to cover for him when he played D. I think  Komisarek & Schenn have suffered some playing with Gardiner.

Having said that, to date, I do not regret Gardiner being on this roster. But at times, he has left his partner high and dry and sometimes, his partner is the one taking the media hit for it.

 

[maplesyrup]

Perhaps Liles might be the best partner for Schenn right now?

 

[Corn Flake]

Having said that, to date, I do not regret Gardiner being on this roster. But at times, he has left his partner high and dry and sometimes, his partner is the one taking the media hit for it.

Completely agree with you.  Komisarek at some point was put with Liles on a steadier basis and he hasn't looked better.  When he was with Gardniner he was all over the place.

But still, on his own Schenn is doing some crazy things this year... with the puck he is giving it the grenade treatment, hesitating nearly every time he touches it. 

I do think at some point they need to send Gardiner down, put Franson back in on his natural side and let things settle in.  They are enamored with Gardiner's speed and puck savvy but its high risk stuff that could use some seasoning. 

put it this way.. if Gardiner was a veteran coming in, he would already be getting the Tom Kurvers treatment.