2016 Summer Housekeeping Thread
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
bustaheims
Active member
TBLeafer said:
Probably still the majority, but, it's largely irrelevant and still meaningless. It's been 30 years. The complexion of the league is completely different. There's been use changes, equipment changes, strategy changes, etc. There are now 10 more teams in the league.
And, well, being in a better place than the 85-86 Leafs is among the lowest bars you can set. Even at their worst, these Leafs were better than the 85-86 Leafs. So, I mean, you're making a really useless comparison there. I don't think anyone would argue that, for the Leafs to contend, they'll need the right mix of experience and talent. The issue is that some don't agree that the players being brought in help to make up the right mix, in light of the fact that the Leafs won't be contending this season, some also question the wisdom of bringing in older players if it leads to losing quality young players.
Highlander
Active member
I left the Leafs for about 20 years, I came back when I came back to the country in 2002 and Quinn put together a few good years. I do remember being in the Old Convento Hotel in Puerto Rico in 93 and watching the run for the Cup from the TV in our room (I found the games by accident). My Wife had never seen the Leafs and was jumping up and down on the bed while Gilmour, Potvin and the rest made their run. She became an immediate fan, but taunts me on why they are still losing. I am trying to sell the same old line on her but she is not buying in as yet.
The 80's were absolutely the worst and are no reflection of what his currently going on. What is going on has never been done before with this franchise, even in the days of Conn Smythe when we were still in the stone ages of the game.
The 80's were absolutely the worst and are no reflection of what his currently going on. What is going on has never been done before with this franchise, even in the days of Conn Smythe when we were still in the stone ages of the game.
Kin
New member
To sort of illustrate what I said earlier, here are the average ages of every team the last two years:
http://mirtle.blogspot.ca/2014/10/2014-15-nhl-teams-by-height-weight-and.html
http://mirtle.blogspot.ca/2015/10/2015-16-nhl-teams-by-height-weight-and.html
There's really not much to glean there. Just the mere presence of "veterans" seems pretty meaningless.
http://mirtle.blogspot.ca/2014/10/2014-15-nhl-teams-by-height-weight-and.html
http://mirtle.blogspot.ca/2015/10/2015-16-nhl-teams-by-height-weight-and.html
There's really not much to glean there. Just the mere presence of "veterans" seems pretty meaningless.
Redleaf
Active member
TBLeafer said:
Its been a long long time, but that is the last time they starting to seriously collect early 1st round, top 10 picks.
From '81-'90 they got...
1981 6 OA Jim Benning
1982 3 OA Gary Nylund
1983 7 OA Russ Courtnall
1984 4 OA Al Iafrate
1985 1 OA Wendel Clarke
1986 6 OA Vince Damphousse
1987 7 OA Luke Richardson
1988 6 OA Scott Pearson
1989 3 OA Scott Thornton
1990 10 OA Drake Berehowsky
Thats a solid 10 year stretch of top 10 picks every single year. How did that work out?
In terms of current contract housekeeping, going into September.
FORWARDS
J. Van Riemsdyk ($ 4,250,000) --- N. Kadri ($ 4,500,000) --- W. Nylander ($ 894,166)
M. Michalek ($ 4,000,000) --- A. Matthews ($ 925,000) --- Z. Hyman ($ 900,000)
L. Komarov ($ 2,950,000) --- T. Bozak ($ 4,200,000) --- C. Brown ($ 686,667)
C. Greening ($ 2,650,000) --- B. Laich ($ 4,500,000) --- M. Martin ($ 2,500,000)
DEFENCE
M. Rielly ($ 5,000,000) --- M. Marincin ($ 1,500,000)
J. Gardiner ($ 4,050,000) --- N. Zaitsev ($ 925,000)
M. Hunwick ($ 1,200,000) --- R. Polak ($ 2,250,000)
GOAL
F. Andersen ($ 5,000,000) --- J. Bernier ($ 4,150,000)
Extras
C. Carrick ($ 1,000,000) --- M. Marner ($ 894,166) --- F. Corrado ($ 632,500)
---------------------------------------------------
2016 NHL Cap Limit: $ 73,000,000
23 Player Roster Cap Used: $ 73,107,499
Cap Buried in the Minors: + $ 0
Cap Hit from Buyout(s): + $ 683,333
Cap Retained in Trades : + $ 1,200,000
Long Term Injury Reserve: - $ 5,300,000
Cap Space Available : $ 3,309,168
Lots of talent pressure from below with an already LTIR cap, you could argue Soshnikov, Rychel, Leivo, Leipsic too, but it should be at least a little interesting to watch, like coach said about people wondering if they know what they're doing for the next 3 years. ( and I mean that as an admirer of Babcock ).
FORWARDS
J. Van Riemsdyk ($ 4,250,000) --- N. Kadri ($ 4,500,000) --- W. Nylander ($ 894,166)
M. Michalek ($ 4,000,000) --- A. Matthews ($ 925,000) --- Z. Hyman ($ 900,000)
L. Komarov ($ 2,950,000) --- T. Bozak ($ 4,200,000) --- C. Brown ($ 686,667)
C. Greening ($ 2,650,000) --- B. Laich ($ 4,500,000) --- M. Martin ($ 2,500,000)
DEFENCE
M. Rielly ($ 5,000,000) --- M. Marincin ($ 1,500,000)
J. Gardiner ($ 4,050,000) --- N. Zaitsev ($ 925,000)
M. Hunwick ($ 1,200,000) --- R. Polak ($ 2,250,000)
GOAL
F. Andersen ($ 5,000,000) --- J. Bernier ($ 4,150,000)
Extras
C. Carrick ($ 1,000,000) --- M. Marner ($ 894,166) --- F. Corrado ($ 632,500)
---------------------------------------------------
2016 NHL Cap Limit: $ 73,000,000
23 Player Roster Cap Used: $ 73,107,499
Cap Buried in the Minors: + $ 0
Cap Hit from Buyout(s): + $ 683,333
Cap Retained in Trades : + $ 1,200,000
Long Term Injury Reserve: - $ 5,300,000
Cap Space Available : $ 3,309,168
Lots of talent pressure from below with an already LTIR cap, you could argue Soshnikov, Rychel, Leivo, Leipsic too, but it should be at least a little interesting to watch, like coach said about people wondering if they know what they're doing for the next 3 years. ( and I mean that as an admirer of Babcock ).
bustaheims
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
Yeah. If the team's scouts were allowed the proper resources and time (and, as we've said on multiple occasions, teams need to draft well outside the 1st round, as well). Just looking at other guys taken in the 1st round after the Leafs' pick, those picks easily could have been:
1981: Grant Fuhr, James Patrick, Al MacInnis
1982: Scott Stevens, Phil Housley, Dave Andreychuk
1983: Cam Neely, Dave Gagner
1984: Shayne Corson, Gary Roberts, Kevin Hatcher
1985: Clark was probably the best player taken in the 1st round, but Nieuwendyk went in the 2nd
1986: Damphousse was the right choice
1987: Joe Sakic (who, as the story goes, the scouts wanted, but Ballard insisted on Richardson)
1988: Martin Gelinas, Jeremy Roenick, Rod Brind'Amour, Teemu Selanne (in that order, immediately after the Leafs took Pearson - what a whiff that one was)
1989: Stu Barnes, Bill Guerin, Bobby Holik, Olaf Kolzig
1990: Keith Tkachuk, Marty Brodeur
You could put together a pretty solid core group from the guys the Leafs passed on, but may have chosen if Ballard wasn't all about cutting costs down to the bare minimum.
Kin
New member
bustaheims said:
And even with all that said, the Leafs in those years were in maybe the worst situation imaginable in terms of scouting, development and organizational stability and they still acquired some pretty good players who developed pretty well regardless.
So I don't know how effective that is as a cautionary tale.
RedLeaf said:
Let's go back to 2009.
2009 - Nazem Kadri - 7 OA
2010 - Phil Kessel - 2 OA
2011 - Phil Kessel - 9 OA
2012 - Morgan Rielly - 5 OA
2013 - Frederik Gauthier - 21 OA
2014 - William Nylander - 8 OA
2015 - Mitch Marner - 4 OA
2016 - Auston Matthews - 1 OA
All players still in the system except Kessel. We don't need to see anymore high picks for the remainder of this decade, unless Shanny really does want to follow the Ballard and Edmonton model.
Let's zero in on this...
Russ Courtnall - 7 OA
Al Iafrate - 4 OA
Wendel Clark - 1 OA
William Nylander - 8 OA
Mitch Marner - 4 OA
Auston Matthews - 1 OA
That pick order is frighteningly similar since Shanny took the helm. I say its time to break that trend.
Kin
New member
TBLeafer said:
Again, what point do you think you're making here? This isn't a cogent argument, it's just highlighting a coincidence and drawing an entirely unfounded conclusion. Courtnall, Iafrate and Clark weren't the basis of a championship team. What is the actual relevance of the team having three years of roughly similar draft picks thirty years apart? How is that instructive?
You're just bringing up random facts and claiming they support a central thesis. If the Leafs did what you're suggesting back then they'd have not drafted Damphousse, arguably the single best player they drafted in the entire run. How does that support what you're saying?
Redleaf
Active member
bustaheims said:
Cleary that would have never happened. You could go back to any draft and call all the scouts fools for not picking players that would later turn out to be stars. Its a pointless exercise. All your showing us here is that its easier to make the right picks near or at the top of the draft . I think most of us here already knew that.
Nik the Trik said:
If we tank for 2 more seasons, like many want, then this past decade (2010 - 2020) WILL be the Ballard years relived. Capiche?
STOP wanting us to keep sucking for more high picks. Have a better standard than that now.
Just because you choose to completely ignore the point of how truly bad the Leafs have been and how that needs to stop now, doesn't mean it isn't being made.
Time to start having higher expectations of the team and of management than merely being able to scrape together yet another bottom five finish in the 2016-17 season.
The team is being built better than that.
Ballard lover.
bustaheims
Active member
RedLeaf said:
You don't think with better scouts, more resources, and less interference from management, the Leafs would have made the better choice in a number of those drafts? I mean, it's not like I'm highlighting a single player as a mistake (outside of Sakic, who the scouts wanted to draft, but, Ballard had to Ballard). In most cases, there were 3 or 4 players that went shortly after the Leafs' pick that turned into quality NHL players. In a couple instances, you can argue the difference between them and the Leafs' pick isn't significant, but, outside of that, I have no doubts that, with better scouting, more resources from scouting, and less interference, the Leafs would have made better choices with the majority of those picks.
Either way, I was just expanding on the point about how Ballard's cost cutting impacted the Leafs, and, because of that, their strong of 10 straight top ten picks doesn't really provide any information past "Ballard did a really good job of screwing up the Leafs." It doesn't tell you anything about the team's current situation, nor is it evidence that they shouldn't be interested in more top 10 picks. The league has changed dramatically since then - from including a much wider range of European players in the draft, rule changes, equipment changes, and the introduction of a salary cap, among other things - and team building scenarios from 25+ years ago are largely irrelevant now.
bustaheims
Active member
TBLeafer said:
And, what Nik is correctly pointing out, is that you're making a false equivalency. It's only similar on a surface level. Any deeper analysis shows how drastically different the two scenarios are.