Goaltending conundrum v3.0-Reimer or Bernier?

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Claude Loiselle was interviewed on TSN1050 just now.  Made some "interesting" comments about the goaltending, and specifically the coaching of Rick St. Croix.

Basically he said St. Croix is "easy going" and doesn't try to ostracize the goalies.  Said when goalies are in the minors they don't tend to get as much attention and closely followed as they are in the NHL, and don't get "singled out" but instead are more part of the team.  They're involved in team practices and watching what's going in during the penalty kill.

Now I say these comments are interesting because it sounds to me like he's highlighting how different St. Croix's approach was to Allaire.  We all heard the stories about Allaire not getting along with other coaches and segragating the goalies from the rest of the team during practices.

Hasn't someone from Leafs management taken "shots" before at Allaire?

 

[Zee]

Claude Loiselle was interviewed on TSN1050 just now.  Made some "interesting" comments about the goaltending, and specifically the coaching of Rick St. Croix.

Basically he said St. Croix is "easy going" and doesn't try to ostracize the goalies.  Said when goalies are in the minors they don't tend to get as much attention and closely followed as they are in the NHL, and don't get "singled out" but instead are more part of the team.  They're involved in team practices and watching what's going in during the penalty kill.

Now I say these comments are interesting because it sounds to me like he's highlighting how different St. Croix's approach was to Allaire.  We all heard the stories about Allaire not getting along with other coaches and segragating the goalies from the rest of the team during practices.

Hasn't someone from Leafs management taken "shots" before at Allaire?

Yeah, I guess they just keep repeating it to give the old "see, it was Allaire's fault" mantra.  ;D

 

[TML fan]

One thing I've noticed with Reimer in particular is that he doesn't even attempt to use his stick to make saves. He actually holds it off to the side when he drops down. He's let in a number of goals already this season that could have been easy stick saves (particularly Grigorenko's goal). I hope St. Croix picks up on that.

 

[cw]

The 30 NHL starters by save%
0.968 Craig Anderson OTT 0.99
0.944 Roberto Luongo VAN 1.46
0.934 Corey Crawford CHI 1.66
0.933 Antti Niemi SJS 1.95
0.932 Carey Price MTL 1.82
0.925 Devan Dubnyk EDM 2.53
0.924 Kari Lehtonen DAL 2.62
0.922 James Reimer TOR 2.47 (8th)
0.920 Ilya Bryzgalov PHI 2.40
0.919 Tuukka Rask BOS 2.10
0.919 Semyon Varlamov COL 2.41
0.911 Anders Lindback TBL 2.83
0.910 Ryan Miller BUF 2.98
0.909 Niklas Backstrom MIN 2.51
0.907 Pekka Rinne NSH 2.37
0.907 Jonathan Quick LAK 2.43
0.907 Sergei Bobrovsky CBJ 2.97
0.906 Evgeni Nabokov NYI 3.14
0.904 Henrik Lundqvist NYR 2.78
0.901 Jose Theodore FLA 3.39
0.899 Martin Brodeur NJD 2.75
0.899 Michal Neuvirth WSH 2.97
0.898 Jimmy Howard DET 2.96
0.897 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT 2.54
0.889 Jaroslav Halak STL 2.10
0.888 Ondrej Pavelec WPG 3.56
0.873 Mike Smith PHX 3.06
0.868 Jonas Hiller ANA 3.43
0.867 Cam Ward CAR 4.05
0.854 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 3.76

The 30 NHL starters by GAA
0.99 Craig Anderson OTT
1.46 Roberto Luongo VAN
1.66 Corey Crawford CHI
1.82 Carey Price MTL
1.95 Antti Niemi SJS
2.10 Tuukka Rask BOS
2.10 Jaroslav Halak STL
2.37 Pekka Rinne NSH
2.40 Ilya Bryzgalov PHI
2.41 Semyon Varlamov COL
2.43 Jonathan Quick LAK
2.47 James Reimer TOR (12th)
2.51 Niklas Backstrom MIN
2.53 Devan Dubnyk EDM
2.54 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT
2.62 Kari Lehtonen DAL
2.75 Martin Brodeur NJD
2.78 Henrik Lundqvist NYR
2.83 Anders Lindback TBL
2.96 Jimmy Howard DET
2.97 Sergei Bobrovsky CBJ
2.97 Michal Neuvirth WSH
2.98 Ryan Miller BUF
3.06 Mike Smith PHX
3.14 Evgeni Nabokov NYI
3.39 Jose Theodore FLA
3.43 Jonas Hiller ANA
3.56 Ondrej Pavelec WPG
3.76 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY
4.05 Cam Ward CAR


It's too early to take a lot from the stats but not too shabby for James so far.

 

[ZBBM]

Reimer has been solid for the most part.

And hoorah for Roberto Alessandro Luongo.  Chew on them stats, Gillis.

 

[Britishbulldog]

I think it speaks to the nature of goaltending in general that very, very few goalies are consistently among the absolute top goalies year after year.  It's amazing that, just glancing at Vezina nominations over the last 5 years, 11 different goalies got those 15 nominations.  Only Rinne, Thomas, Lundqvist and Brodeur had more than one nomination (2 each).  So, on one hand, I'd still call Miller one of the best goalies in the world.  One the other, I'd also put him and others like Luongo somewhere in the top 10, maybe 15?, which will be very subjective and vary a lot year by year on anybody's list.

So I'd agree he's over-rated if people think he's a perennial Vezina nominee.  Do you think that's the general perception...?

I think the general perception is that he's either on that sort of top-tier of goalies with guys like Rinne and Lundqvist and Quick, I suppose is there now, or that he's right below it. Personally, I think he's squarely more with guys like Ward and Price and Backstrom and that he's middle of the pack with those guys.

Here are the goalies that I feel are comparable to Reimer's age and ability.  If Reimer is able to continue like he is now, I hope he is signed this summer to an extension deal similar to Pavelec, maybe 6-8 years, $4.0 MIL.

CAP Rank		Player	Pos	Team	Age	Length	Amount
15.		Schneider, Cory	G	VAN	26	3	$4,000,000
16.		Pavelec, Ondrej	G	WIN	25	5	$3,900,000
19.		Halak, Jaroslav	G	STL	27	4	$3,750,000
22.		Dubnyk, Devan	G	EDM	26	2	$3,500,000

 

[Redleaf]

The 30 NHL starters by save%
0.968 Craig Anderson OTT 0.99
0.944 Roberto Luongo VAN 1.46
0.934 Corey Crawford CHI 1.66
0.933 Antti Niemi SJS 1.95
0.932 Carey Price MTL 1.82
0.925 Devan Dubnyk EDM 2.53
0.924 Kari Lehtonen DAL 2.62
0.922 James Reimer TOR 2.47 (8th)
0.920 Ilya Bryzgalov PHI 2.40
0.919 Tuukka Rask BOS 2.10
0.919 Semyon Varlamov COL 2.41
0.911 Anders Lindback TBL 2.83
0.910 Ryan Miller BUF 2.98
0.909 Niklas Backstrom MIN 2.51
0.907 Pekka Rinne NSH 2.37
0.907 Jonathan Quick LAK 2.43
0.907 Sergei Bobrovsky CBJ 2.97
0.906 Evgeni Nabokov NYI 3.14
0.904 Henrik Lundqvist NYR 2.78
0.901 Jose Theodore FLA 3.39
0.899 Martin Brodeur NJD 2.75
0.899 Michal Neuvirth WSH 2.97
0.898 Jimmy Howard DET 2.96
0.897 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT 2.54
0.889 Jaroslav Halak STL 2.10
0.888 Ondrej Pavelec WPG 3.56
0.873 Mike Smith PHX 3.06
0.868 Jonas Hiller ANA 3.43
0.867 Cam Ward CAR 4.05
0.854 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 3.76

The 30 NHL starters by GAA
0.99 Craig Anderson OTT
1.46 Roberto Luongo VAN
1.66 Corey Crawford CHI
1.82 Carey Price MTL
1.95 Antti Niemi SJS
2.10 Tuukka Rask BOS
2.10 Jaroslav Halak STL
2.37 Pekka Rinne NSH
2.40 Ilya Bryzgalov PHI
2.41 Semyon Varlamov COL
2.43 Jonathan Quick LAK
2.47 James Reimer TOR (12th)
2.51 Niklas Backstrom MIN
2.53 Devan Dubnyk EDM
2.54 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT
2.62 Kari Lehtonen DAL
2.75 Martin Brodeur NJD
2.78 Henrik Lundqvist NYR
2.83 Anders Lindback TBL
2.96 Jimmy Howard DET
2.97 Sergei Bobrovsky CBJ
2.97 Michal Neuvirth WSH
2.98 Ryan Miller BUF
3.06 Mike Smith PHX
3.14 Evgeni Nabokov NYI
3.39 Jose Theodore FLA
3.43 Jonas Hiller ANA
3.56 Ondrej Pavelec WPG
3.76 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY
4.05 Cam Ward CAR


It's too early to take a lot from the stats but not too shabby for James so far.

After a disappointing loss last night it's nice to wake up and see these pretty impressive numbers for Reimer. The game last night could have easily gotten out of control if it weren't for James!

 

[Zee]

So you're saying we could have had the #2 goalie in the league!

 

[cw]

So you're saying we could have had the #2 goalie in the league!

I sincerely doubt he'd put up the same numbers in Toronto.

 

[Redleaf]

The 30 NHL starters by save%
0.968 Craig Anderson OTT 0.99
0.944 Roberto Luongo VAN 1.46
0.934 Corey Crawford CHI 1.66
0.933 Antti Niemi SJS 1.95
0.932 Carey Price MTL 1.82
0.925 Devan Dubnyk EDM 2.53
0.924 Kari Lehtonen DAL 2.62
0.922 James Reimer TOR 2.47 (8th)
0.920 Ilya Bryzgalov PHI 2.40
0.919 Tuukka Rask BOS 2.10
0.919 Semyon Varlamov COL 2.41
0.911 Anders Lindback TBL 2.83
0.910 Ryan Miller BUF 2.98
0.909 Niklas Backstrom MIN 2.51
0.907 Pekka Rinne NSH 2.37
0.907 Jonathan Quick LAK 2.43
0.907 Sergei Bobrovsky CBJ 2.97
0.906 Evgeni Nabokov NYI 3.14
0.904 Henrik Lundqvist NYR 2.78
0.901 Jose Theodore FLA 3.39
0.899 Martin Brodeur NJD 2.75
0.899 Michal Neuvirth WSH 2.97
0.898 Jimmy Howard DET 2.96
0.897 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT 2.54
0.889 Jaroslav Halak STL 2.10
0.888 Ondrej Pavelec WPG 3.56
0.873 Mike Smith PHX 3.06
0.868 Jonas Hiller ANA 3.43
0.867 Cam Ward CAR 4.05
0.854 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 3.76

The 30 NHL starters by GAA
0.99 Craig Anderson OTT
1.46 Roberto Luongo VAN
1.66 Corey Crawford CHI
1.82 Carey Price MTL
1.95 Antti Niemi SJS
2.10 Tuukka Rask BOS
2.10 Jaroslav Halak STL
2.37 Pekka Rinne NSH
2.40 Ilya Bryzgalov PHI
2.41 Semyon Varlamov COL
2.43 Jonathan Quick LAK
2.47 James Reimer TOR (12th)
2.51 Niklas Backstrom MIN
2.53 Devan Dubnyk EDM
2.54 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT
2.62 Kari Lehtonen DAL
2.75 Martin Brodeur NJD
2.78 Henrik Lundqvist NYR
2.83 Anders Lindback TBL
2.96 Jimmy Howard DET
2.97 Sergei Bobrovsky CBJ
2.97 Michal Neuvirth WSH
2.98 Ryan Miller BUF
3.06 Mike Smith PHX
3.14 Evgeni Nabokov NYI
3.39 Jose Theodore FLA
3.43 Jonas Hiller ANA
3.56 Ondrej Pavelec WPG
3.76 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY
4.05 Cam Ward CAR


It's too early to take a lot from the stats but not too shabby for James so far.

Reimer is also the youngest amongst the top 10 goalies as well (maybe even the top 30?), which is also pretty impressive. At age 24, I would guess there is a lot more room to run.

 

[cw]

The 30 NHL starters by save%
0.968 Craig Anderson OTT 0.99
0.944 Roberto Luongo VAN 1.46
0.934 Corey Crawford CHI 1.66
0.933 Antti Niemi SJS 1.95
0.932 Carey Price MTL 1.82
0.925 Devan Dubnyk EDM 2.53
0.924 Kari Lehtonen DAL 2.62
0.922 James Reimer TOR 2.47 (8th)
0.920 Ilya Bryzgalov PHI 2.40
0.919 Tuukka Rask BOS 2.10
0.919 Semyon Varlamov COL 2.41
0.911 Anders Lindback TBL 2.83
0.910 Ryan Miller BUF 2.98
0.909 Niklas Backstrom MIN 2.51
0.907 Pekka Rinne NSH 2.37
0.907 Jonathan Quick LAK 2.43
0.907 Sergei Bobrovsky CBJ 2.97
0.906 Evgeni Nabokov NYI 3.14
0.904 Henrik Lundqvist NYR 2.78
0.901 Jose Theodore FLA 3.39
0.899 Martin Brodeur NJD 2.75
0.899 Michal Neuvirth WSH 2.97
0.898 Jimmy Howard DET 2.96
0.897 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT 2.54
0.889 Jaroslav Halak STL 2.10
0.888 Ondrej Pavelec WPG 3.56
0.873 Mike Smith PHX 3.06
0.868 Jonas Hiller ANA 3.43
0.867 Cam Ward CAR 4.05
0.854 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 3.76

The 30 NHL starters by GAA
0.99 Craig Anderson OTT
1.46 Roberto Luongo VAN
1.66 Corey Crawford CHI
1.82 Carey Price MTL
1.95 Antti Niemi SJS
2.10 Tuukka Rask BOS
2.10 Jaroslav Halak STL
2.37 Pekka Rinne NSH
2.40 Ilya Bryzgalov PHI
2.41 Semyon Varlamov COL
2.43 Jonathan Quick LAK
2.47 James Reimer TOR (12th)
2.51 Niklas Backstrom MIN
2.53 Devan Dubnyk EDM
2.54 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT
2.62 Kari Lehtonen DAL
2.75 Martin Brodeur NJD
2.78 Henrik Lundqvist NYR
2.83 Anders Lindback TBL
2.96 Jimmy Howard DET
2.97 Sergei Bobrovsky CBJ
2.97 Michal Neuvirth WSH
2.98 Ryan Miller BUF
3.06 Mike Smith PHX
3.14 Evgeni Nabokov NYI
3.39 Jose Theodore FLA
3.43 Jonas Hiller ANA
3.56 Ondrej Pavelec WPG
3.76 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY
4.05 Cam Ward CAR


It's too early to take a lot from the stats but not too shabby for James so far.

Reimer is also the youngest amongst the top 10 goalies as well (maybe even the top 30?), which is also pretty impressive. At age 24, I would guess there is a lot more room to run.

Neuvirth is very close in age to Reimer - a few days younger. Varlamov is a month younger. Lindback is 2 months younger. Bobrovsky is 6 months younger. Like Reimer, none of those guys are truly established NHL starters though they may well do that this season.

All the others are older. I think Price (5 months older) and Rask (a year older) are next.

 

[nutman]

All stats aside, Reimer is playing awsome, and getting better every game he starts. keep looking for  the bad guys, and maybe just maybe, you may find some.

 

[cw]

All stats aside, Reimer is playing awsome, and getting better every game he starts. keep looking for  the bad guys, and maybe just maybe, you may find some.

As long as he keeps the softies/stoppable goals to a minimum like he has been, I'm pretty happy. That goaltending is good enough to get a team to the playoffs if the other guys do their part.

 

[nutman]

All stats aside, Reimer is playing awsome, and getting better every game he starts. keep looking for  the bad guys, and maybe just maybe, you may find some.

As long as he keeps the softies/stoppable goals to a minimum like he has been, I'm pretty happy. That goaltending is good enough to get a team to the playoffs if the other guys do their part.

Lets cross our fingers.

 

[lamajama]

I think it speaks to the nature of goaltending in general that very, very few goalies are consistently among the absolute top goalies year after year.  It's amazing that, just glancing at Vezina nominations over the last 5 years, 11 different goalies got those 15 nominations.  Only Rinne, Thomas, Lundqvist and Brodeur had more than one nomination (2 each).  So, on one hand, I'd still call Miller one of the best goalies in the world.  One the other, I'd also put him and others like Luongo somewhere in the top 10, maybe 15?, which will be very subjective and vary a lot year by year on anybody's list.

So I'd agree he's over-rated if people think he's a perennial Vezina nominee.  Do you think that's the general perception...?

I think the general perception is that he's either on that sort of top-tier of goalies with guys like Rinne and Lundqvist and Quick, I suppose is there now, or that he's right below it. Personally, I think he's squarely more with guys like Ward and Price and Backstrom and that he's middle of the pack with those guys.

Here are the goalies that I feel are comparable to Reimer's age and ability.  If Reimer is able to continue like he is now, I hope he is signed this summer to an extension deal similar to Pavelec, maybe 6-8 years, $4.0 MIL.

CAP Rank		Player	Pos	Team	Age	Length	Amount
15.		Schneider, Cory	G	VAN	26	3	$4,000,000
16.		Pavelec, Ondrej	G	WIN	25	5	$3,900,000
19.		Halak, Jaroslav	G	STL	27	4	$3,750,000
22.		Dubnyk, Devan	G	EDM	26	2	$3,500,000

No disrespect but there's no way Reimer is worth $4 mil. I'd do another 2 year deal and then see

 

[gunnar36]

This is such a small sampling so far I would not go proclaiming him as a top 10 goalie in the league based on stats after 5 games.
Yes his numbers are good so far and I think it can be attributed to a tightened defensive style approach from Carlyle in which Reimer has not had to make that many tough saves.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

This is such a small sampling so far I would not go proclaiming him as a top 10 goalie in the league based on stats after 5 games.
Yes his numbers are good so far and I think it can be attributed to a tightened defensive style approach from Carlyle in which Reimer has not had to make that many tough saves.

He also played 37 games with a .921 SV% in '10-11.  Not completely out of the blue this time.

 

[leafplasma]

At the very least we can get back to thinking Reimer is a good, young up and coming goalie. After last season, many including myself were ready to write him off.  It now appears last season's poor performance can be attributed to the concussion which you would think would be even more difficult to overcome for a goalie than at other positions where concentration and timing are so important and maybe a bit of the sophomore jinx thrown in there.  RC's system is helping of couse and I also believe Scrivens is pushing Reimer more than Gus did last year.  Scrivens has put up lights out and even superior numbers at every level he has played at and James is completely aware of the potential there.

What I am probably most happy about with Reimer's performance is the fact we still have guys like Kadri, Frattin, Gardiner and even Gunnar on our team and not with the Nucks.  Bodes very well for the rebuild.

 

[Bonsixx]

Like the old Letterman skit ... Is This Anything?

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/F_SkSHwSj9ufS6XsMO3jZw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnhlexperts/chartgoalieshots.jpg

 

[moon111]

A team can win a Cup with goaltending like Vernon or Osgood.  With goaltenders being a gamble, maybe the Leaf's best option is too stay with the status-quo and upgrade in other areas.