Official Ottawa Senators Thread

[Kin]

If you subscribe to the theory that if he's playing offense, then he's not having to play defense, then he's without comparable really. A lot of thinking on defense has definitely shifted from has to be great in own end, to just not having to play there much.

Except if you're using that as a yardstick, doesn't something like GF% sort of accurately measure the extent to which his offensive abilities mean "he doesn't have to play defense?". Over the last three years, for instance, Karlsson's GF% is 51.2 which is a good but not great total. Of all of the defensemen Carlton and I mentioned, Karlsson's GF% is the lowest.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Well in my role as "Diet Madferret" I have failed because by golly you've only gone and convinced me.

 

[bustaheims]

Well in my role as "Diet Madferret" I have failed because by golly you've only gone and convinced me.

Good, because we don't need anymore of his kind around here.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

In no particular order I'd say: Doughty, Keith, Subban, Karlsson, Hedman. Karlsson might only be average in his own end, but for a defenceman to be able to do what he does in the other end is basically unheard of in this era.

See, for me it's Doughty, Keith, Subban, Hedman and then there's a conversation about #5 with guys like Karlsson bu also Ryan Suter and Shea Weber. I mean, you want to talk about who they're playing with and for Weber there's a lot of Craig Smith and Paul Gaustad and for Suter it's Jared Spurgeon and Jason Pominville. Bobby Ryan seems like a pretty decent choice all said and done.

That seems pretty selective - Suter gets mentioned as playing with Spurgeon, but not all the time he's spent with Jonas Brodin.  Or that Karlsson plays mostly with Methot.  Is there really much difference in Spurgeon/Methot?  And Suter has spent a lot of time on the ice with Jason Pominville, and also Mikko Koivu and Zach Parise.  Weber's most common partner has been Roman Josi over the past 3 seasons.  I don't really think there's anything to be significantly gained or taken away from any of these players, and certainly not Karlsson, on the basis of their quality of teammates.

 

[Kin]

I don't really think there's anything to be significantly gained or taken away from any of these players, and certainly not Karlsson, on the basis of their quality of teammates.

Wait a second, that was my point.

 

[Madferret]

If you subscribe to the theory that if he's playing offense, then he's not having to play defense, then he's without comparable really. A lot of thinking on defense has definitely shifted from has to be great in own end, to just not having to play there much.

I'd have him top 3 just because he dominates a facet of the game like none of his peers do and I'd say he's as good as Doughty and Subban too if you're looking at the sum of all parts.

On offence, he's deadly, no question, and, yes, that helps his team from the defensive standpoint, in that they have the puck more when he's on the ice. However, he's not the type of guy you go to when you're up by 1 and have to deal with a faceoff in the defensive zone in the last minute of the game - and, really, a traditional Norris calibre defenceman would be used in that situation.

9 out of 10 times Karlsson is on the ice in the situation you just described.

He's one of the best defensemen of the past 25 years already and his best is yet to come. His minimum 2 Norris trophys basically has him as a HHOF lock already - it's painfully funny watching you guys blinded by your hatred of all things Sens trying to cheapen how good he is.

 

[Madferret]

ADD - in a market where you get put on a pedestal for shutting out the perennial last place Oilers I can only imagine what you guys would be saying if Karlsson was a Leaf.

 

[Madferret]

Ferret - out!!

 

[Kin]

I can't speak for the rest of you guys but I think that if Karlsson was a Leaf I'd probably say he was the best offensive defenseman and top 10 overall in the league.

 

[bustaheims]

I can't speak for the rest of you guys but I think that if Karlsson was a Leaf I'd probably say he was the best offensive defenseman and top 10 overall in the league.

Yeah. I think he'd receive slightly better treatment than Kaberle. We're not the type of fans that really ignore the flaws in a player's game. If anything, we have a tendency focus on them.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Yeah. I think he'd receive slightly better treatment than Kaberle. We're not the type of fans that really ignore the flaws in a player's game. If anything, we have a tendency focus on them.

I mean, on a grand-scale of NHL players I'd put Karlsson ahead of Kessel, but I don't think the treatment of either player would be all too different in Toronto.

 

[Deebo]

Blind hatred of all things sens?

"The best offensive defenseman in the game and top 10 overall" - Nik the Trik

"He's deadly offensively" - Bustaheims

"He drives the play" - Significantly Insignificant

"Karlsson's a great defencemen" - CarltonTheBear

"I'd have him top 3 just because he dominates a facet of the game like none of his peers do" - Patrick

You'll also notice how no one really posts in this thread until you come along. We don't care about the sens.

 

[bustaheims]

He's one of the best defensemen of the past 25 years already and his best is yet to come. His minimum 2 Norris trophys basically has him as a HHOF lock already - it's painfully funny watching you guys blinded by your hatred of all things Sens trying to cheapen how good he is.

No one is saying he's not a great player. He's like this generation's Paul Coffey, and, despite winning 3 Norris trophies, Coffey was frequently called out for his mediocre play on the defensive side of the puck - and rightly so. Exceptional offensive defencemen like Karlsson can be great players without being anything more than average defensively because of how good they are on the offensive side of the puck.

 

[Bullfrog]

ADD - in a market where you get put on a pedestal for shutting out the perennial last place Oilers I can only imagine what you guys would be saying if Karlsson was a Leaf.

I mean, I think you're talking about Sparks here. He was put on a pedestal in jest. It's a cool story that he's the only TML goalie in history to get a shutout in his debut. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think it speaks to your insecurity as a non-leafs fan that you actually believe Leafs' fans are putting Sparks on a pedestal.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

ADD - in a market where you get put on a pedestal for shutting out the perennial last place Oilers I can only imagine what you guys would be saying if Karlsson was a Leaf.

I mean, I think you're talking about Sparks here. He was put on a pedestal in jest. It's a cool story that he's the only TML goalie in history to get a shutout in his debut. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think it speaks to your insecurity as a non-leafs fan that you actually believe Leafs' fans are putting Sparks on a pedestal.

I saw more jokes about him not yet having an "NHL" shutout because it was Edmonton.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Given the mention about Karlsson's minimal PK time, looking back over the last few seasons, there's actually quite a bit of a correlation between Karlsson's minimal use on the PK and his Norris Trophy wins:

2011-12:  SHTOI/G  0:33  PPTOI/G  3:53  Norris voting: #1
2012-13:  SHTOI/G  1:46  PPTOI/G  4:30  Norris voting: #18
2013-14:  SHTOI/G  1:30  PPTOI/G  4:05  Norris voting: #7
2014-15:  SHTOI/G  0:33  PPTOI/G  4:48  Norris voting: #1
2015-16:  SHTOI/G  0:50  PPTOI/G  4:40  Norris voting: ?

There was mention of other Norris Trophy caliber players, and here's the list going back a ways of the various other Norris Trophy winners and how much time they put in on the PK in those seasons.  Karlsson is a pretty major outlier here in terms of his minimal PK use among Norris candidates and winners.

2013-14  Keith 2:23
2012-13  Subban 1:27
2010-11  Lidstrom 2:40
2009-10  Keith 2:58
2008-09  Chara 3:21
2007-08  Lidstrom  3:57
2006-07  Lidstrom  4:32
2005-06  Lidstrom  5:14
2003-04  Niedermayer  2:55
2002-03  Lidstrom  5:55
2001-02  Lidstrom  5:11
2000-01  Lidstrom  5:13
1999-00  Pronger  5:10
1998-99  MacInnis  5:05
1997-98  Blake  3:23

I could go on.... Draw your own conclusions.

 

[hockeyfan1]

From an article someone posted on Reddit:  Re: Karlsson

Every day I read countless comments suggesting he is undeserving of a Norris trophy and that his play-style is a joke

Not too many defensemen can actually defend like Karlsson does. Here's some counter points to what his critics say:

-"Karlsson doesn't kill penalties." Karlsson plays 30 minutes a game and his strengths are breaking out of the zone and creating offence.

-"Karlsson isn't good in his own zone." He is the Ottawa Senators breakout strategy.People don't understand that this is pretty much the biggest defensive zone responsibility and Karlsson does it with ease. Nobody in the league can lead a breakout like EK65

-"He's not physical. Norris trophy winners have to be physical and intimidating."Karlsson uses his speed and active stick to steal and intercept pucks from the opponents. He proves his size doesn't take away from his strength in battles for pucks.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Vancouver's Alex Burrows traded to Ottawa for the Sens' prospect (2nd Round pick) Jonathan Dahlen.

Burrows also extended his contract to 2yrs. @$2.5M.

More:
http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/hockey/nhl/senatorsextra/senators-working-on-deal-for-canucks-alex-burrows

 

[WAYNEINIONA]

Perfect! My most despised player in the NHL. He dives, he's dirty, a whiner and he will bite you if he gets the chance. Ottawa you just got a real classy guy.

 

[McGarnagle]

That's a pretty steep price to pay for Burrows. Dahlen is a pretty good prospect.

Adding an extension so he'd waive the ntc, I'd imagine. Seems like bad money on top of losing assets.