Ontario Election 2018

[cabber24]

https://twitter.com/BillTufts/status/1002700156066762752

How do idiots like this even breathe?

WTF, good question. "Illegals", were they wearing a sign or something?

 

[dappleganger]

https://twitter.com/BillTufts/status/1002700156066762752

How do idiots like this even breathe?

Check out a review of Bill Tufts book:

 

[Kin]

As for voters, I'd imagine liberals in the States are different animals than those across the border... but down here, centrist voters just don't seem as ideological as their right-wing or left-wing counterparts or as desirous of changing society in any particular way (hence centrists), and they generally seem to have more trust in and investment in the personal success of their political leaders (are likely to see their failures as being victimized by the media or the underhanded tricks of the opposition, rather than betraying a cause). So, if they're not motivated by a vision of how society ought to arrange itself (or are largely satisfied with how it does presently) and their leaders tell them any change is bad, any change is bad.

I think you're probably right that a Centrist political party appeals to people who aren't strongly ideological or who are just wary of any change to the status quo but I don't think that means there aren't strongly ideological Centrists. I think there are people who are as committed to the idea that neoliberal economic policies combined with the sort of social liberalism that they think is constructive for society(gay people should spend a lot of money on their weddings!) is the only good thing for society as anyone is to hard-right politics or socialism.

Lately I've been watching a bunch of GQ interviews on youtube conducted by Tony Blair's old lieutennant Alistair Campbell that have been mainly been with establishment centrist politicians like Blair and Ed Milliband(although for you Black Mirror fans there's also a really good one with Charlie Brooker) and I don't get the sense from these people that it is all just cynicism or political gamesmanship or even personal protection. I think they really look at the last decade or so and don't see a need for much more stringent financial regulation or any sort of redress for income inequality beyond more of the same sort of "if we grow the economy, it's good for everyone" policy.

 

[mr grieves]

As for voters, I'd imagine liberals in the States are different animals than those across the border... but down here, centrist voters just don't seem as ideological as their right-wing or left-wing counterparts or as desirous of changing society in any particular way (hence centrists), and they generally seem to have more trust in and investment in the personal success of their political leaders (are likely to see their failures as being victimized by the media or the underhanded tricks of the opposition, rather than betraying a cause). So, if they're not motivated by a vision of how society ought to arrange itself (or are largely satisfied with how it does presently) and their leaders tell them any change is bad, any change is bad.

I think you're probably right that a Centrist political party appeals to people who aren't strongly ideological or who are just wary of any change to the status quo but I don't think that means there aren't strongly ideological Centrists.

But even then, I wonder, looking at some liberals I know, how deep that commitment to a status quo goes... there's some research, I'm told, that shows voters are pretty open to influence by political elites. Some chunk of Trump's base would probably get on board with him starting a US NHS as long as he kept yelling at football players and calling brown people "animals." On the centrist, this-is-fine side, I sort of suspect that, for some of my liberal friends, if Obama had come out in favor of sharia Marxism, they would -- as long he still made good memes and liked the right TV shows -- "be there for that."

Anyhow, I'm sure, among the leadership, there are ideological centrists.

I think there are people who are as committed to the idea that neoliberal economic policies combined with the sort of social liberalism that they think is constructive for society(gay people should spend a lot of money on their weddings!) is the only good thing for society as anyone is to hard-right politics or socialism.

Now, we're back to the politicians... yeah, there are some who are completely committed to the centrist program (wedding cakes for whoever can afford them), but things get clouded a bit by the way centrists disavow the worst of their policies by claiming to be "pragmatic progressives" who just know that their program, for all its flaws, is the best we can hope for, much as they'd like a living wage and strong antitrust enforcement. Are those committed ideologues? Heavens no! Just sensible folks who agree with the left-wing 95% of the time (Clinton's figure from 2016) but know the limits of the possible.

I think the reactions to Corbyn's bringing Labour up out of the basement and within a few seats of a government -- and, in other places, reactions to the inability of the center to stop the right-wing from surging into power -- was telling. Those outcomes showed a left-wing program is, at this moment in history, probably just as "pragmatic" a thing to run on as a centrist program. That the Blairs, Obamas, and Clintons of the world remain unmoved suggests they're really committed to their program and not merely "pragmatic progressives" -- though again I'd wonder if there isn't a selfish bit of motivation at play here (not a return to power, as they're out of the game, but an attempt to preserve a legacy -- does Obama want to be remembered as the 21C's Grover Cleveland?).

Anyhow, I've only seen her ads during hockey games, so I don't know Wynne enough to say whether she's not throwing her support behind the NDP out of an ideological commitment or in the hopes that a right-wing government will return her party to power or make its outgoing government look not as bad as what's coming... but it's definitely an interesting blind spot that considers the NDP as much a danger as a Trumpian right-wing party. 

 

[Kin]

Now, we're back to the politicians... yeah, there are some who are completely committed to the centrist program (wedding cakes for whoever can afford them), but things get clouded a bit by the way centrists disavow the worst of their policies by claiming to be "pragmatic progressives" who just know that their program, for all its flaws, is the best we can hope for, much as they'd like a living wage and strong antitrust enforcement. Are those committed ideologues? Heavens no! Just sensible folks who agree with the left-wing 95% of the time (Clinton's figure from 2016) but know the limits of the possible.

I think the reactions to Corbyn's bringing Labour up out of the basement and within a few seats of a government -- and, in other places, reactions to the inability of the center to stop the right-wing from surging into power -- was telling. Those outcomes showed a left-wing program is, at this moment in history, probably just as "pragmatic" a thing to run on as a centrist program. That the Blairs, Obamas, and Clintons of the world remain unmoved suggests they're really committed to their program and not merely "pragmatic progressives" -- though again I'd wonder if there isn't a selfish bit of motivation at play here (not a return to power, as they're out of the game, but an attempt to preserve a legacy -- does Obama want to be remembered as the 21C's Grover Cleveland?).

Sure. If there was one thing that my time in government taught me it's that cynical, self-interested grifters exist within every ideology. To some extent in equal measures outside of the current modern conservative movement that seems to hold cynical, self-interested grifterism up as a tenet of their platform.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Election day! I'm still a little hopeful that NDP can pull this off.

 

[Darryl]

https://twitter.com/BillTufts/status/1002700156066762752

How do idiots like this even breathe?

Hmm which person has a history of giving out twenties to voters.

 

[Kin]

Alright so...province of Toronto, who's with me?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Idiots.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Huge shoutout to my fellow Guelphites for making history tonight!  ;D

 

[Kin]

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again...Democracy simply doesn't work.

 

[Bullfrog]

Sadly, electoral reform is somewhat like daylight savings time. We bitch about it when it happens, the forget about it until next time.

Both Thunder Bay ridings are neck-and-neck between Liberal and NDP. Liberal has the advantage because both of the incumbent MPPs are long-serving liberal ministers. Both only separated by 1-200 votes.

 

[bustaheims]

Well, I guess now we hope the Doug is about as effective as premier as his brother was as mayor.

 

[Zee]

No joke but my client is the Ontario government and we're working on a social assistance app for the ministry.  I can totally see cuts coming and part of the "fat reduction" to get rid of IBM off this project.  My days here could be numbered.

 

[Bullfrog]

Well, I guess now we hope the Doug is about as effective as premier as his brother was as mayor.

That's the hope for sure. He's going to find out that running a province is, you know, hard. Most of his promises won't be possible to keep.

<Sigh> I guess I'll wait another four years to get my tooth fixed.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

That's the hope for sure. He's going to find out that running a province is, you know, hard. Most of his promises won't be possible to keep.

That's fine he never intended to keep them anyway.

 

[Andy007]

That's the hope for sure. He's going to find out that running a province is, you know, hard. Most of his promises won't be possible to keep.

That's fine he never intended to keep them anyway.

He had no money allocated to anything, no budget, no numbers, when the voting started. It's still unfathomable to me that someone would vote for him simply on that basis alone. I mean, can anyone be mad if a promise isn't fulfilled? It's their own freaking fault.

 

[ZBBM]

Dear Ontario,

Really?

You looked over the border and decided to become *more* like us?

Sign me "Mystified."

 

[hockeyfan1]

Ford won largely on a "for the people" campaign -- even his signs omitted or lessened the appearance of the PC brand somewhat.  He rode on his merits as the former Toronto city councillor who, (along with his brother, the late Rob Ford), was known as a "people person", always available and willing to help the common man.

It's understandable that Ontarians wanted the Liberals out -- the GTA voted largely PC while the city of Toronto coloured itself orange (NDP). Ford hardly presented a platform throughout his campaign, unlike his rival Horwath.

Ford himself may not come across as articulate or highly knowledgeable of provincial politics, but his behind-the-scenes strategists got the job done:

teMr. Ford?s campaign was run by several top Conservative operatives who will now turn their attention to defeating Mr. Trudeau in next year?s national vote.

On Ford being dubbed as Ontario's version of Trump:

Mr. Ford shares Mr. Trump?s dislike of the media and fondness for the term ?fake news.? During the campaign he also portrayed himself as champion of ?the people? who, he said, were being undermined by society?s elites.

But he is very unlike Mr. Trump when it comes to immigration. Since his brother?s time in office, the Fords courted and welcomed immigrants to their ranks. Last month, Mr. Ford swiftly disavowed a white nationalist from Quebec who supported his campaign.

What exactly does he promise/propose:

Mr. Ford has promised further rate reductions although he did not explain how that could be squared with billions of dollars in tax cuts, beyond citing the elimination of waste that he said exists throughout the government. In turn, Mr. Ford also promised that he could eliminate that waste without cutting government jobs or services.

It'll be interesting to see how a Ford government gets along with the federal Liberals and how a Ford victory affects the city of Toronto in terms of provincial-municipal-local (financial) support as towards facilitating and maintaining a level of equilibrium in the needs and structure of a city (hat didn't paint itself in the Ford colours).  Will he get along with Mayor Tory or will there be inevitable squabbling over funding  issues?

Lots of questions out there, few answers.  Time will only tell.


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/07/world/canada/ontario-premier-election.html

 

[herman]

Most people vote with their beliefs rather than brains, and it's clear that most people in Ontario believe in helping themselves more important than helping those in need.

Here's an articulate sample of reasoning from my circle of acquaintances:

I voted PC because I work hard and hope that I will be rewarded by my hard work. I do not wish to be taxed to the poverty line so that the government can give FREE everything to those who do not believe in working for what you want in life, and that EVERYONE can be EQUAL. I have enough of the Liberals reaching into my pay check liberally. I don't want to be robbed by the NDP for another 4 years. Ford may not be the kind of leader I want, but I feel I need to exercise my right, instead of letting others to decide for me. I hope all of those who feel that our vote would not make a difference would just give it a shot.