barney_rebel
Active member
We stink dudes...
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barney_rebel said:We stink dudes...
Nik the Trik said:Although I was never much for the Joe Clark-George HW Bush style of conservative politics I will say this for them, they at least represented an ideology where competence in elected officials was still valued.
I would be the first to say that Centrists too often value "charisma" over something more tangible but the response to go running to the dumbest, loudest voice in the room is pretty breath taking for a movement that once prided itself of being the voice of cold, hard rationality.
mr grieves said:I wonder if the complete incompetence, cravenness, and brutality of the Trumps and Fords sometimes distort the way we see previous conservatives.
mr grieves said:For all the differences between the Bushes and the Trumps, there's a continuity in the conservative movement that shouldn't be overlooked.
Nik the Trik said:mr grieves said:For all the differences between the Bushes and the Trumps, there's a continuity in the conservative movement that shouldn't be overlooked.
Sure, at the same time it would be insane to not see a difference between "I don't like these policies because they're reinforcing and strengthening the systemic racism that creates social/economic divide" and "I don't like these policies because Neo-Nazis feel emboldened to violently roam the streets".
mr grieves said:Right. I certainly don't mean to insist on identity between the two. But the first term is more than just upwardly redistributive policies that reinforce various inequities and sustain systemic racism -- they're policies largely sold by appealing to racial and other cultural resentments. And I think it's fair to say that helps us get from the former state to the latter.
Nik the Trik said:I don't know that is fair to say as some sort of inevitability. I think it's fair to say it certainly happened in the US to some extent but I don't think that makes it a hard and fast rule. Other countries have had centre-right conservatives without descending into that.mr grieves said:Right. I certainly don't mean to insist on identity between the two. But the first term is more than just upwardly redistributive policies that reinforce various inequities and sustain systemic racism -- they're policies largely sold by appealing to racial and other cultural resentments. And I think it's fair to say that helps us get from the former state to the latter.
mr grieves said:I don't think anything is any sort of inevitability. Everything is contingent. A lot of different variables have to come together to produce any sort of outcome -- one important ingredient here is a base of political support primed to respond favorably to racist, xenophobic messages, and I think we know how they got there. Rick Perlstein tells us.
Nik the Trik said:So I'm not entirely clear on your point. I don't like any of those politicians but there's still something to be said for some level of competence. If only ideologically.
mr grieves said:My point is that the only "something to be said" for mainline conservatism of the 70s-00s is that it helped paved the way for the frothing bigots that now control our governments. Its competence is, I guess, not nothing, but their real world-historical function and contribution was to take a preexisting strain and turn it into the core of their popular support, feeding the beast that broken free and run wild over the last few years. That's how we ought to remember them.
Nik the Trik said:I really think you're reading too much into "George HW Bush wasn't a good president but at least he managed not to bring the post-war co-operation of Western Nations down around his ears".
mr grieves said:Nik the Trik said:I really think you're reading too much into "George HW Bush wasn't a good president but at least he managed not to bring the post-war co-operation of Western Nations down around his ears".
Or I just disagree that competence in maintaining the day-to-day administrative functions of government is even worth a minor compliment next to the last crew's pernicious contributions to, and the horrible consequences of those on, our politics. I suspect we also disagree on causes and symptoms, and that likely has something to do with it. People disagree on the internet -- wild.
mr grieves said:Or I just disagree that competence in maintaining the day-to-day administrative functions of government is even worth a minor compliment next to the last crew's pernicious contributions to, and the horrible consequences of those on, our politics.
CarltonTheBear said:Well, that just seems dumb. I always thought it was a really good program/initiative.
Nik the Trik said:CarltonTheBear said:Well, that just seems dumb. I always thought it was a really good program/initiative.
Try to look at it from the Conservative perspective:
1. It didn't cost much
2. The money it did cost went to homeowners and small businesses
3. It encouraged investment in homes and lowered hydro bills
4. It was good for the environment
Clearly, something had to be done.
Nik the Trik said:CarltonTheBear said:Well, that just seems dumb. I always thought it was a really good program/initiative.
Try to look at it from the Conservative perspective:
1. It didn't cost much
2. The money it did cost went to homeowners and small businesses
3. It encouraged investment in homes and lowered hydro bills
4. It was good for the environment
Clearly, something had to be done.