Ontario Election 2018

[barney_rebel]

We stink dudes...

 

[louisstamos]

We stink dudes...

;D ;D ;D

 

[mr grieves]

Although I was never much for the Joe Clark-George HW Bush style of conservative politics I will say this for them, they at least represented an ideology where competence in elected officials was still valued.

I would be the first to say that Centrists too often value "charisma" over something more tangible but the response to go running to the dumbest, loudest voice in the room is pretty breath taking for a movement that once prided itself of being the voice of cold, hard rationality.

I wonder if the complete incompetence, cravenness, and brutality of the Trumps and Fords sometimes distort the way we see previous conservatives. HW Bush might've governed guided by an ideology that prized cold, hard rationality, but he made it into office with racist garbage like the Willie Horton ad, which hits a lot of the same notes that Trump did in 2016. There's long been a split between what conservative elites think and do and what they tell their base, which makes plenty of sense since there's little popular support for their policy platform. The most recent development in right-wing politics is, I think, the elevation of a generation of politicians who actually believe what they've been telling telling voters for years, the dogwhistles becoming air horns, and the sales pitch (nationalism and xenophobia, for example) becoming the substance of what they do (protectionism and closed borders). For all the differences between the Bushes and the Trumps, there's a continuity in the conservative movement that shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[Kin]

I wonder if the complete incompetence, cravenness, and brutality of the Trumps and Fords sometimes distort the way we see previous conservatives.

I don't think so. Or, at least, if it does it's understandable in as much as things get compared to each other all the time. Human beings think in terms of relative truths and that's reasonably fair. That's not to say things should only be compared to one other thing though. If someone were out there saying "I didn't like George HW Bush at the time but because of Trump now I think he was great!" then that would be pretty stupid but "I didn't like George HW Bush but he was better than this numbskull" is entirely reasonable.

To use a hockey analogy, I can look at a team who has a 50 point season and a team with a 75 point season and say that the team with 50 points stinks compared to the team with 75 points while still knowing the team with 75 points isn't actually good.

For all the differences between the Bushes and the Trumps, there's a continuity in the conservative movement that shouldn't be overlooked.

Sure, at the same time it would be insane to not see a difference between "I don't like these policies because they're reinforcing and strengthening the systemic racism that creates social/economic divide" and "I don't like these policies because Neo-Nazis feel emboldened to violently roam the streets".

 

[mr grieves]

For all the differences between the Bushes and the Trumps, there's a continuity in the conservative movement that shouldn't be overlooked.

Sure, at the same time it would be insane to not see a difference between "I don't like these policies because they're reinforcing and strengthening the systemic racism that creates social/economic divide" and "I don't like these policies because Neo-Nazis feel emboldened to violently roam the streets".

Right. I certainly don't mean to insist on identity between the two. But the first term is more than just upwardly redistributive policies that reinforce various inequities and sustain systemic racism -- they're policies largely sold by appealing to racial and other cultural resentments. And I think it's fair to say that helps us get from the former state to the latter.

 

[Kin]

Right. I certainly don't mean to insist on identity between the two. But the first term is more than just upwardly redistributive policies that reinforce various inequities and sustain systemic racism -- they're policies largely sold by appealing to racial and other cultural resentments. And I think it's fair to say that helps us get from the former state to the latter.

I don't know that is fair to say as some sort of inevitability. I think it's fair to say it certainly happened in the US to some extent but I don't think that makes it a hard and fast rule. Other countries have had centre-right conservatives without descending into that.

 

[mr grieves]

Right. I certainly don't mean to insist on identity between the two. But the first term is more than just upwardly redistributive policies that reinforce various inequities and sustain systemic racism -- they're policies largely sold by appealing to racial and other cultural resentments. And I think it's fair to say that helps us get from the former state to the latter.

I don't know that is fair to say as some sort of inevitability. I think it's fair to say it certainly happened in the US to some extent but I don't think that makes it a hard and fast rule. Other countries have had centre-right conservatives without descending into that.

I don't think anything is any sort of inevitability. Everything is contingent. A lot of different variables have to come together to produce any sort of outcome -- one important ingredient here is a base of political support primed to respond favorably to racist, xenophobic messages, and I think we know how they got there. Rick Perlstein tells us.

 

[Kin]

I don't think anything is any sort of inevitability. Everything is contingent. A lot of different variables have to come together to produce any sort of outcome -- one important ingredient here is a base of political support primed to respond favorably to racist, xenophobic messages, and I think we know how they got there. Rick Perlstein tells us.

I would emphatically agree that by indulging in the dog-whistling that the Republicans of the 80's, 90's and 2000's are certainly culpable for not doing enough to combat the virulent strain of racism but that strain existed before then. Feeding the beast and letting it off the leash are both bad but, again, 50 points and 75 points.

So I'm not entirely clear on your point. I don't like any of those politicians but there's still something to be said for some level of competence. If only ideologically.

 

[mr grieves]

So I'm not entirely clear on your point. I don't like any of those politicians but there's still something to be said for some level of competence. If only ideologically.

My point is that the only "something to be said" for mainline conservatism of the 70s-00s is that it helped paved the way for the frothing bigots that now control our governments. Its competence is, I guess, not nothing, but their real world-historical function and contribution was to take a preexisting strain and turn it into the core of their popular support, feeding the beast that broken free and run wild over the last few years. That's how we ought to remember them.

 

[Kin]

My point is that the only "something to be said" for mainline conservatism of the 70s-00s is that it helped paved the way for the frothing bigots that now control our governments. Its competence is, I guess, not nothing, but their real world-historical function and contribution was to take a preexisting strain and turn it into the core of their popular support, feeding the beast that broken free and run wild over the last few years. That's how we ought to remember them.

Yeah, I just genuinely disagree there. Even if I did see them as a cause rather than a symptom of the people you're talking about I'm still paying the most minor of compliments in saying that there's a value in a baseline competence that goes towards maintaining the day to day administrative functions of government.

I really think you're reading too much into "George HW Bush wasn't a good president but at least he managed not to bring the post-war co-operation of Western Nations down around his ears".

 

[mr grieves]

I really think you're reading too much into "George HW Bush wasn't a good president but at least he managed not to bring the post-war co-operation of Western Nations down around his ears".

Or I just disagree that competence in maintaining the day-to-day administrative functions of government is even worth a minor compliment next to the last crew's pernicious contributions to, and the horrible consequences of those on, our politics. I suspect we also disagree on causes and symptoms, and that likely has something to do with it. People disagree on the internet -- wild.

 

[louisstamos]

I really think you're reading too much into "George HW Bush wasn't a good president but at least he managed not to bring the post-war co-operation of Western Nations down around his ears".

Or I just disagree that competence in maintaining the day-to-day administrative functions of government is even worth a minor compliment next to the last crew's pernicious contributions to, and the horrible consequences of those on, our politics. I suspect we also disagree on causes and symptoms, and that likely has something to do with it. People disagree on the internet -- wild.

At least this interaction is remarkably civil for an internet debate.  ;D

 

[Kin]

Or I just disagree that competence in maintaining the day-to-day administrative functions of government is even worth a minor compliment next to the last crew's pernicious contributions to, and the horrible consequences of those on, our politics.

The citizens need milk, comrade, but they also like it when bombs don't fall on their heads.

 

[sickbeast]

I personally think Trump is bluffing with us with respect to NAFTA.  He was bluffing with North Korea also.  It could well be his negotiating style.

 

[Kin]

Superheating the Earth to own the libs.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/province-scraps-green-ontario-fund-1.3980209#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=caS4EqN

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Well, that just seems dumb. I always thought it was a really good program/initiative.

 

[Kin]

Well, that just seems dumb. I always thought it was a really good program/initiative.

Try to look at it from the Conservative perspective:

1. It didn't cost much
2. The money it did cost went to homeowners and small businesses
3. It encouraged investment in homes and lowered hydro bills
4. It was good for the environment

Clearly, something had to be done.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

*Excuse the language*

https://twitter.com/mnlrick/status/1009167624498921472
https://twitter.com/cavalorn/status/654934442549620736

 

[Frank E]

Well, that just seems dumb. I always thought it was a really good program/initiative.

Try to look at it from the Conservative perspective:

1. It didn't cost much
2. The money it did cost went to homeowners and small businesses
3. It encouraged investment in homes and lowered hydro bills
4. It was good for the environment

Clearly, something had to be done.

We'll disagree on a lot of politics, but I'm a business guy, and Ontario is in $350 billion worth of debt that gets serviced with your tax dollars.

So, yeah, there's going to be some cuts to programs that people will be upset about.  As long as they can get that deficit to $0, or ideally a surplus, quit adding to the mountain, and start to chip away it at, I'm expecting some things to come down the pipe that aren't going to be popular with many, including me.

 

[herman]

Well, that just seems dumb. I always thought it was a really good program/initiative.

Try to look at it from the Conservative perspective:

1. It didn't cost much
2. The money it did cost went to homeowners and small businesses
3. It encouraged investment in homes and lowered hydro bills
4. It was good for the environment

Clearly, something had to be done.