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Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

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Zee said:
Potvin29 said:
Interesting article on shot distances and Leafs coaches: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/25/4019356/randy-carlyle-coaching-myth-narrative-systems-leafs-defense

So should we fire Carlyle and bring back Wilson?  I'm so confused.

Yeah I don't really get the message here.. I skim read the piece, but it seems as though they are looking at one slice of the whole picture and using that as an argument that Carlyle is no better than Wilson.  I've heard this chant from that group for quite a while now.  I believe one of them was even calling for Carlyle to be fired at the end of last year.  Just a tad unrealistic. 

I don't understand how comparing what Carlyle did with another team applies to what Wilson did with the Leafs.  Would be more useful to see how things have looked in the time Carlyle has been here vs. a similar amount of time while Wilson was here.

 
Zee said:
Potvin29 said:
Interesting article on shot distances and Leafs coaches: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/25/4019356/randy-carlyle-coaching-myth-narrative-systems-leafs-defense

So should we fire Carlyle and bring back Wilson?  I'm so confused.

No, it's just a response to media claiming Carlyle's system has been the reason for improved goals against, a differing opinion.
 
Corn Flake said:
Yeah I don't really get the message here.. I skim read the piece, but it seems as though they are looking at one slice of the whole picture and using that as an argument that Carlyle is no better than Wilson.  I've heard this chant from that group for quite a while now.  I believe one of them was even calling for Carlyle to be fired at the end of last year.  Just a tad unrealistic. 

I don't understand how comparing what Carlyle did with another team applies to what Wilson did with the Leafs.  Would be more useful to see how things have looked in the time Carlyle has been here vs. a similar amount of time while Wilson was here.

Well, that's just it. It's like a lot of advanced hockey metrics, it seems to have essentially no interest in anything resembling actual analysis. There's absolutely no discussion about systems outside of the pure measurement of shots that are produced and the distance they're taken from. There's no discussion or analysis of what Carlyle might or might not be doing differently with players or what result that's actually having on the game.

Heck, they even put system in quotation marks as if the very idea of deploying personnel differently is largely irrelevant.
 
Im not sure I care what the stats say. The main stats are wins which seem to be up. Our goals against.. which seem to be down and a better PK than before. I would never want WIlson anywhere near this team again
 
Corn Flake said:
Zee said:
Potvin29 said:
Interesting article on shot distances and Leafs coaches: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/2/25/4019356/randy-carlyle-coaching-myth-narrative-systems-leafs-defense

So should we fire Carlyle and bring back Wilson?  I'm so confused.

Yeah I don't really get the message here.. I skim read the piece, but it seems as though they are looking at one slice of the whole picture and using that as an argument that Carlyle is no better than Wilson.  I've heard this chant from that group for quite a while now.  I believe one of them was even calling for Carlyle to be fired at the end of last year.  Just a tad unrealistic. 

I don't understand how comparing what Carlyle did with another team applies to what Wilson did with the Leafs.  Would be more useful to see how things have looked in the time Carlyle has been here vs. a similar amount of time while Wilson was here.

I don't think the argument is that Carlyle is no better than Wilson, the argument is that the Leafs are improved in goals against due to other factors than Carlyle instilling a 'system' that they lacked before.
 
Boston Leaf said:
Im not sure I care what the stats say. The main stats are wins which seem to be up. Our goals against.. which seem to be down and a better PK than before. I would never want WIlson anywhere near this team again

Didn't want to turn it into a Wilson vs Carlyle thing, but also worth noting both had the same number of points after this many games last season, and that's with having among the best goaltending in the league this season so far.
 
Potvin29 said:
Boston Leaf said:
Im not sure I care what the stats say. The main stats are wins which seem to be up. Our goals against.. which seem to be down and a better PK than before. I would never want WIlson anywhere near this team again

Didn't want to turn it into a Wilson vs Carlyle thing, but also worth noting both had the same number of points after this many games last season, and that's with having among the best goaltending in the league this season so far.

Which probably in part, has to do with coaching. :)

Obviously Reimer being healthy is a key to that, but he's also made some big changes to his style which is having a huge impact.  The goaltending coach, who works and presumably was hired by Carlyle, is helping with that.  It was obviously a messy situation to get rid of Allaire but in the short time without him, we're seeing a big improvement. 
 
The article kind of glosses over what I think might be a big part of the difference here - summing it up only in this one paragraph:

Ironically this may lead to a debate around "fronting" and Wilson's use of the shot blocking tactic. Firstly, I am not sold on the idea that the Leafs were particularly effective at blocking or tipping shots, but that is neither here nor there. Secondarily, it is often asserted that the attempt by the D men to block shots often results in screens that damage a goaltender's ability to track shots from the point, thus lowering SV% on long distance shots.

Wilson did put a significant emphasis on blocking shots. In his 3 full seasons behind the Leafs' bench, they ranked 5th, 7th and 2nd in the league in total blocked shots. Last year, where Wilson and Carlyle split the year, they finished 11th and they're currently 9th (though, with the uneven number of games played so far limits the usefulness of that ranking). The article is absolutely right in saying that increased attempts to block shots lead to increased instances of the goalie being screened or, something the article doesn't mention, shots being deflected. Carlyle's Leafs seem less concerned with getting in front of shots, which means the goalies are seeing more shots, and, as any goalie will tell you, it's much easier to stop shots when you can see them all the way and no one is getting a stick/foot/leg/whatever on them on the way through.
 
bustaheims said:
The article kind of glosses over what I think might be a big part of the difference here - summing it up only in this one paragraph:

Ironically this may lead to a debate around "fronting" and Wilson's use of the shot blocking tactic. Firstly, I am not sold on the idea that the Leafs were particularly effective at blocking or tipping shots, but that is neither here nor there. Secondarily, it is often asserted that the attempt by the D men to block shots often results in screens that damage a goaltender's ability to track shots from the point, thus lowering SV% on long distance shots.

Wilson did put a significant emphasis on blocking shots. In his 3 full seasons behind the Leafs' bench, they ranked 5th, 7th and 2nd in the league in total blocked shots. Last year, where Wilson and Carlyle split the year, they finished 11th and they're currently 9th (though, with the uneven number of games played so far limits the usefulness of that ranking). The article is absolutely right in saying that increased attempts to block shots lead to increased instances of the goalie being screened or, something the article doesn't mention, shots being deflected. Carlyle's Leafs seem less concerned with getting in front of shots, which means the goalies are seeing more shots, and, as any goalie will tell you, it's much easier to stop shots when you can see them all the way and no one is getting a stick/foot/leg/whatever on them on the way through.

Very well said.
 
bustaheims said:
The article kind of glosses over what I think might be a big part of the difference here - summing it up only in this one paragraph:

Ironically this may lead to a debate around "fronting" and Wilson's use of the shot blocking tactic. Firstly, I am not sold on the idea that the Leafs were particularly effective at blocking or tipping shots, but that is neither here nor there. Secondarily, it is often asserted that the attempt by the D men to block shots often results in screens that damage a goaltender's ability to track shots from the point, thus lowering SV% on long distance shots.

Wilson did put a significant emphasis on blocking shots. In his 3 full seasons behind the Leafs' bench, they ranked 5th, 7th and 2nd in the league in total blocked shots. Last year, where Wilson and Carlyle split the year, they finished 11th and they're currently 9th (though, with the uneven number of games played so far limits the usefulness of that ranking). The article is absolutely right in saying that increased attempts to block shots lead to increased instances of the goalie being screened or, something the article doesn't mention, shots being deflected. Carlyle's Leafs seem less concerned with getting in front of shots, which means the goalies are seeing more shots, and, as any goalie will tell you, it's much easier to stop shots when you can see them all the way and no one is getting a stick/foot/leg/whatever on them on the way through.

The question would be, are shot totals up or down from last year? If they are equal(despite not getting in front of as many shots), or lower, than that means the Leafs are playing a more sound defensive system.

If shots are up, then that points to your assessment of letting the goalies see the pucks.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
The question would be, are shot totals up or down from last year? If they are equal(despite not getting in front of as many shots), or lower, than that means the Leafs are playing a more sound defensive system.

If shots are up, then that points to your assessment of letting the goalies see the pucks.

Well, not necessarily. If they're not pushing the other team to the outside as much, then teams will be taking less shots from the outside, but not necessarily less shots overall. More blocked shots doesn't necessarily translate less shots against. That being said, shots against are up a little from the previous two seasons and they're up more than a shot a game from Wilson's first 2 seasons with the Leafs.
 
bustaheims said:
OldTimeHockey said:
The question would be, are shot totals up or down from last year? If they are equal(despite not getting in front of as many shots), or lower, than that means the Leafs are playing a more sound defensive system.

If shots are up, then that points to your assessment of letting the goalies see the pucks.

Well, not necessarily. If they're not pushing the other team to the outside as much, then teams will be taking less shots from the outside, but not necessarily less shots overall. More blocked shots doesn't necessarily translate less shots against. That being said, shots against are up a little from the previous two seasons and they're up more than a shot a game from Wilson's first 2 seasons with the Leafs.

I guess that could be correct.

What I do notice is more shots from the outside and low risk places as opposed to previous years where you feared every rush was going to end up with a pretty good scoring chance against.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
What I do notice is more shots from the outside and low risk places as opposed to previous years where you feared every rush was going to end up with a pretty good scoring chance against.

So do I. I don't feel they're giving up as many high quality scoring chances, and the goaltenders are getting better looks at the shots that are being taken.
 
bustaheims said:
OldTimeHockey said:
What I do notice is more shots from the outside and low risk places as opposed to previous years where you feared every rush was going to end up with a pretty good scoring chance against.

Now if only we could figure out if Scrivens needs glasses or not because the long point shots seem to be a bit of a problem

So do I. I don't feel they're giving up as many high quality scoring chances, and the goaltenders are getting better looks at the shots that are being taken.
 
i'd be interested to see what the odd man rushes are at from year to year..because it feels like there are a lot less of them so far this season then at any point under wilson..but without data that obviously doesn't mean much.  If there is a disparity there I'd say that's something that carlyle has been able to effect with this team...also again..only a feeling..but it feels like this team gets its sticks in the laneways better then in the past ..if that's true..perhaps it has something to do with the D being once again allowed to have one hand on the stick?
 
If true..

@TSN1050Radio

Great stuff from @DarrenDreger says he doesn't think Randy Carlyle s the biggest fan of Jake Gardiner. Explains why he's not on the team

Hey Randy, the door's that way.

EDIT: Must say though, Carlyle played Fowler as an 18 year old, as others have pointed out on twitter, so it wouldn't make much sense.
 
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