The Official 2013 MLB Thread

[TML fan]

While I can understand Phillips' feelings on being lied to and whatnot, I don't understand why he thought expressing them publicly was a good idea, or that it might illicit sympathy. I imagine the majority of people who read that article are people living a modestly comfortable life or worse, struggling to make ends meet. Phillips is out of touch with the reality that most of the people in the world live in every day. In that context, I can see why people would view him as being ungrateful.

Again, I understand why he is upset, in the context of the world he lives in, but to express it publicly to an audience who will likely have very little sympathy for him...he deserves a slap in the face.

 

[TML fan]

Also, by signing the deal, he's basically saying that for that kind of money, you can slap me in the face all day. To then complain about it makes him a hypocrite.

Quit whining, Brandon.

 

[Kin]

While I can understand Phillips' feelings on being lied to and whatnot, I don't understand why he thought expressing them publicly was a good idea, or that it might illicit sympathy.

I think that sort of comes into focus if you actually read the article in Cincinnati magazine that the quotes come from. Basically the entire theme of the article is that Phillips is beloved in Cincinnati precisely because he has no filter and that he speaks his mind honestly and doesn't express himself via the same BS cliches that 99% of other athletes do.

Phillips didn't just bring the issue up and there's nothing to suggest he did so looking for or expecting sympathy. He was asked about his contract negotiations in the context of an in-depth profile and he answered honestly about how he felt.

 

[Kin]

Also, by signing the deal, he's basically saying that for that kind of money, you can slap me in the face all day. To then complain about it makes him a hypocrite.

No. A hypocrite would be if he treated others the way the Reds treated him. There's nothing inherently contradictory about not liking being lied to and still putting it second to liking the city and wanting to stay.

Anyway, read the actual interview in Cincinnati magazine. What he says about the contract is, like, a 15 second digression into a profile of what sounds like a pretty entertaining and smart guy who does speak honestly about being an athlete. Even that quick mention of displeasure about his contract is immediately followed by him saying:

?Number one, the fans love me here. I love it here. It?s a blessing. It shows that [the team] invested a lot of money in me to go out there and do my job, and to keep representing the Reds in a positive way,? he says. ?I feel like that?s the only reason I got that deal?if they didn?t feel I was important to the city, then I wouldn?t still be here.?

and then he even follows that up with a joke. This isn't whining. It's a guy speaking openly.

So, yeah, for anyone to actually read the interview and come away with "what an ungrateful guy" really says more about them then anything he said.

 

[TML fan]

While I can understand Phillips' feelings on being lied to and whatnot, I don't understand why he thought expressing them publicly was a good idea, or that it might illicit sympathy.

I think that sort of comes into focus if you actually read the article in Cincinnati magazine that the quotes come from. Basically the entire theme of the article is that Phillips is beloved in Cincinnati precisely because he has no filter and that he speaks his mind honestly and doesn't express himself via the same BS cliches that 99% of other athletes do.

Phillips didn't just bring the issue up and there's nothing to suggest he did so looking for or expecting sympathy. He was asked about his contract negotiations in the context of an in-depth profile and he answered honestly about how he felt.

I didn't say he wasn't being honest. I said he said it in the context f the world he lives in, which is not the world that the majority of his readers live in, and so some readers would naturally have the reaction that they appear to.

Secondly, he's a hypocrite because he professes to not like being lied to an getting slapped in the face, an yet accepts those actions willingly by signing the deal. He's pissed about money, and he obviously doesn't mind being lied to if he gets what he wants IE: staying in the city. Were he a man of principle that you seem to be implying, he would have left.

Being a swell guy for the majority of the interview doesn't erase the 15 seconds of bullcrap, and bullcrap is how a lot of people are going to see those comments.

 

[Kin]

I didn't say he wasn't being honest. I said he said it in the context f the world he lives in, which is not the world that the majority of his readers live in, and so some readers would naturally have the reaction that they appear to.

I don't think there's anything context specific about not liking being lied to.

Secondly, he's a hypocrite because he professes to not like being lied to an getting slapped in the face, an yet accepts those actions willingly by signing the deal. He's pissed about money, and he obviously doesn't mind being lied to if he gets what he wants IE: staying in the city. Were he a man of principle that you seem to be implying, he would have left.

That's ridiculous. You can not like something, you can be insulted by something but it doesn't make you a hypocrite if those things don't rise to the level of being a hill you'll die on. There are lots of things I don't like about what I do for a living but it doesn't make me a hypocrite if I complain about those things but don't quit my job over them. Simply placing a higher priority on, say, liking the team and the city he lives in doesn't erase those complaints or make them inherently contradictory. By your standard anyone who's ever complained about anything that they didn't immediately abandon would be a hypocrite. Maybe that's the case in your eyes but if so it makes singling Phillips out for criticism less reasonable, not more.

Being a swell guy for the majority of the interview doesn't erase the 15 seconds of bullcrap, and bullcrap is how a lot of people are going to see those comments.

It's not about being a swell guy, it's about looking at those comments in the context that the interview was in. You talk about how he "expected sympathy" but there's no indication that's the case. Likewise, the idea that he was complaining about money or doesn't acknowledge that he's very fortunate doesn't stand up to even a passing reading of his words. He just answered a question honestly which, as the article states repeatedly, is fundamental to both his character and his popularity. Phillips just put words to something that just about everyone acknowledges as a truth about athletes, that contracts aren't just seen in terms of dollar values but also as being indicative of how a team values them and prioritizes them in a pecking order.

If anyone's going to be offended by that simple reality then I'd be stunned how they could follow sports and not be in a perpetual condition of apoplectic rage.

 

[TML fan]

First of all, I have read the article, and honestly I think it makes him even more of a hypocrite than I thought it did when I just isolated the one portion of it. It also makes him sound like more of a whiner.

- He doesn't like that the Reds prioritize Votto over him
- He doesn't like that they gave him all that money leaving less for them to spend on him.

So he's claiming that it's all about where he wants to play and the fans he loves, and in the very same breath he's complaining about the owner giving all that money to his teammate leaving less for him and then claiming that the owner is lying about not having enough money to give him what he thinks he's worth. So really, it's all about the money but he's claiming it's about his pecking order when the Reds were pretty clear and honest with him that he's well below Votto. That's what makes him a hypocrite.

What also makes him a hypocrite is that he has the power to change his situation. He's got the money and the means. A lot of us, most of us, don't have that luxury. So while you might hate your job and complain about it all day, stayin put might be necessary for your continuing prosperity. Phillips can go wherever the heck he wants. To say you don't like getting slapped in the face (being slighted) and then say youre willing to tolerate it (signing the deal) and then complain about it demonstrates a dishonest line of thinking.

If it were truly just about staying in Cincinnati and not about money, I would think he'd be happy that they found the means to keep him at all. I think he truly believes what he's saying, but I think he's just lying to himself. Another thing that makes him a hypocrite.

 

[Kin]

- He doesn't like that the Reds prioritize Votto over him
- He doesn't like that they gave him all that money leaving less for them to spend on him.

I think the first one is right, I think the second is a little off in that I think his complaint is that they told him that they couldn't afford paying him more but clearly could as evidenced by the Votto contract. So he feels they were fundamentally dishonest with him which, again, is understandable.

So he's claiming that it's all about where he wants to play and the fans he loves, and in the very same breath he's complaining about the owner giving all that money to his teammate leaving less for him and then claiming that the owner is lying about not having enough money to give him what he thinks he's worth.

That doesn't even make sense. Someone can prioritize things over X but still be unhappy over X. There's no inherent contradiction there.
Well, first of all

What also makes him a hypocrite is that he has the power to change his situation. He's got the money and the means. A lot of us, most of us, don't have that luxury. So while you might hate your job and complain about it all day, stayin put might be necessary for your continuing prosperity. Phillips can go wherever the heck he wants. To say you don't like getting slapped in the face (being slighted) and then say youre willing to tolerate it (signing the deal) and then complain about it demonstrates a dishonest line of thinking.

Yeah, again, that's only true if your only concept of the world is black and white without any room for compromise or mitigation. The idea that tolerating something you dislike is fundamentally dishonest is the kind of thing a fanatic would say. Most people can deal with things they don't like.

Brandon Phillips, and I know this tends to be glossed over sometimes, professes to be a Christian and I don't know how familiar you are with Christianity but "a slap to the face" is kind of part of a very famous line from the bible. The story, if you don't know, doesn't go "If you're slapped in the face go crazy and vow to burn the earth to the ground because any single insult must be met with complete and total unreasonableness" but, rather, that if you're struck on the face to turn the other cheek. If we take Brandon Phillips at his word then the idea that his response to a "slap in the face" would be to bolt to another market despite his connections to Cinci has no basis in legitimacy.

If it were truly just about staying in Cincinnati and not about money, I would think he'd be happy that they found the means to keep him at all. I think he truly believes what he's saying, but I think he's just lying to himself. Another thing that makes him a hypocrite.

Yeah, at this point it kind of sounds like you have eight-thousand different definitions for hypocrite, none of them accurate, so I'm kind of going to gloss over that and just focus on, yeah, you'd think he would be happy. Which he is. Which he clearly states. HE says he loves it in Cincinnati. He signed the deal. You can feel happy about the contract and still not like how the negotiations went. You just need to have the capacity to not see the world in absolutes.

 

[TML fan]

Most people deal with things they don't like out of necessity because they dont have the power to change it. I believe that Phillips didn't want to leave Cincinnati. It's obvious. I don't believe that he feels slighted for the reasons he's saying.

The article says that because the Reds gave all that money to Votto, they didn't have much left for Phillips. He acknowledges that by saying they didn't have to give Votto that contract (so they could give the money to him). Then he claims that they were lying to him about the money even though a few sentences before he acknowledges that they don't because of Votto.

At the end of the day, the Reds gave him everything he wanted, except the money. So his issue is about money and about feeling slighted because he was prioritized lower than Votto. He is using being "lied to" as a cover for his real issue, which is not getting the money he thinks he deserves, or the respect he thinks he deserves.

 

[Kin]

Most people deal with things they don't like out of necessity because they dont have the power to change it.

Fundamentally that's no different than what Phillips is doing. People deal with crap because the alternative is worse. Phillips felt that the slight of being lied to didn't rise to the level where it would make leaving the Reds the better option.

The article says that because the Reds gave all that money to Votto, they didn't have much left for Phillips. He acknowledges that by saying they didn't have to give Votto that contract (so they could give the money to him). Then he claims that they were lying to him about the money even though a few sentences before he acknowledges that they don't because of Votto.

Wrong on both counts. The article says that the Reds claimed to not be able to pay Phillips more. That they couldn't afford to pay him more. The issue Phillips has is that he thinks the Votto contract is evidence that they were lying to him. Phillips feels like the Votto contract shows they had money. It really couldn't be clearer:

"...For him to do something like [sign Votto for 200 million] and tell me they didn?t have any more money, that?s a lie."

At the end of the day, the Reds gave him everything he wanted, except the money. So his issue is about money and about feeling slighted because he was prioritized lower than Votto. He is using being "lied to" as a cover for his real issue, which is not getting the money he thinks he deserves, or the respect he thinks he deserves.

It's not a cover. Like you acknowledge Phillips could have left if he wanted more money. That's not the issue. He feels the Reds lied to him, he didn't like the fact that they prioritized Votto's deal over his. That's it. There's nothing hypocritical about feeling that way but not having it rise to the level of superseding where he wanted to play.

 

[TML fan]

The Votto contract is money SPENT. You know what a budget is. Does Phillips have access to their books? Does he know? He's making assumptions and then accusing them of being liars, and then using that to justify his bitterness at not getting everything he wanted.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Well then, why would the Reds have lied to him?  It's pretty obvious that they considered Votto to be the more 'valuable' asset, perhaps?  Could race have been a factor (not that I wish to actually believe that)?

 

[Kin]

The Votto contract is money SPENT.

Right but they didn't start negotiating Phillips' contract the second after they signed Votto. He'd been negotiating with them and their claims about money were made before Votto signed. If the Reds had wanted to they could have played slightly harder ball with Votto who, as Phillips notes, was in no rush to be re-signed as he had two years left on his deal as opposed to impending UFA Phillips.

 

[Kin]

Well then, why would the Reds have lied to him?

There's nothing inherently mysterious about that. Clearly they were negotiating with him on the basis that they wanted him to sign for as little as possible. Phillips, who clearly very much wanted to stay in Cincinnati, clearly feels that the Reds played on his desire to stay there to play hardball with him.

 

[TML fan]

The Votto contract is money SPENT.

Right but they didn't start negotiating Phillips' contract the second after they signed Votto. He'd been negotiating with them and their claims about money were made before Votto signed. If the Reds had wanted to they could have played slightly harder ball with Votto who, as Phillips notes, was in no rush to be re-signed as he had two years left on his deal as opposed to impending UFA Phillips.

Ok, so they wanted to give some of the money for Phillips to Votto. There was a certain amount of money they could allocate to Phillips because the rest was going to Votto. So they didn't really lie to him, unless you want to be black and white about it.

 

[Kin]

Ok, so they wanted to give some of the money for Phillips to Votto. There was a certain amount of money they could allocate to Phillips because the rest was going to Votto. So they didn't really lie to him, unless you want to be black and white about it.

But that's giving the Reds every possible benefit of the doubt while you're significantly more in the dark about their financial situation than Phillips is. There's nothing to suggest that they're absolutely tapped out in terms of what they could spend on players regardless of what they gave Votto. They negotiated hard with Phillips because they wanted to get him signed for as low as they could. There's nothing inherently wrong with that but if they told him that the reason they couldn't go higher was because they were already at a limit while planning on giving Votto a massive raise then, yes, that's a lie. Now, admittedly, we don't know what was said in those negotiations but if it comes down to you, who wasn't there, and Phillips who was I'm more inclined to go with Phillips.

Regardless, it's pretty clear that Phillips wasn't playing for sympathy or being a hypocrite or complaining about dollar amounts or any of the other things you've accused him of and then abandoned. He didn't like the way the negotiations went. There's no crime there.

 

[TML fan]

The Reds CERTAINLY know more about their financial situation than Phillips does so who is giving who the benefit of the doubt? You also accept him at his word because he speaks his mind, but what's coming out of his mouth isn't necessarily honest. If you want to be swayed by his charisma, that's your choice. Stop trying to make it mine or anyone else's.

And I haven't abandoned anything. It's about money and its about him not getting everything he wants and opinion that makes him a hypocrite for trying to profess otherwise.

 

[Kin]

The Reds CERTAINLY know more about their financial situation than Phillips does so who is giving who the benefit of the doubt?

Still you. Phillips is 100% correct that if they said they couldn't pay him more they were lying. To me the Votto contract makes it painstakingly clear that their decision with regards to Phillips salary was just a matter of priorities. That's what Phillips didn't like. The only one giving anyone the benefit of the doubt is your choosing to believe the Reds clearly bogus protestations of poverty in your weird interest in twisting the facts to make Phillips sound like he's saying things he isn't.

You also accept him at his word because he speaks his mind, but what's coming out of his mouth isn't necessarily honest. If you want to be swayed by his charisma, that's your choice. Stop trying to make it mine or anyone else's.

The only thing I accept at his word is how he feels because there's no reason for him to lie about how he feels. I'm just not judging him for it. Other than that it's just clear common sense. The Reds gave Votto a ton of money. They could have negotiated with Votto to give him less and Phillips more. They didn't. That reveals priorities. Whether those are the right priorities or not isn't for me to say but it doesn't change the sort of basic human truths that people can feel slighted and lied to even if they're millionaires.

And I haven't abandoned anything. It's about money and its about him not getting everything he wants and opinion that makes him a hypocrite for trying to profess otherwise.

Except all of the evidence points away from that. You yourself have said that he could have gone elsewhere if it were about money. He didn't like how he was treated. People feel that way.

And now you're just straight up using hypocrite as a synonym for liar which...yeah.

 

[TML fan]

The Reds CERTAINLY know more about their financial situation than Phillips does so who is giving who the benefit of the doubt?

Still you. Phillips is 100% correct that if they said they couldn't pay him more they were lying. To me the Votto contract makes it painstakingly clear that their decision with regards to Phillips salary was just a matter of priorities. That's what Phillips didn't like. The only one giving anyone the benefit of the doubt is your choosing to believe the Reds clearly bogus protestations of poverty in your weird interest in twisting the facts to make Phillips sound like he's saying things he isn't.

You also accept him at his word because he speaks his mind, but what's coming out of his mouth isn't necessarily honest. If you want to be swayed by his charisma, that's your choice. Stop trying to make it mine or anyone else's.

The only thing I accept at his word is how he feels because there's no reason for him to lie about how he feels. I'm just not judging him for it. Other than that it's just clear common sense. The Reds gave Votto a ton of money. They could have negotiated with Votto to give him less and Phillips more. They didn't. That reveals priorities. Whether those are the right priorities or not isn't for me to say but it doesn't change the sort of basic human truths that people can feel slighted and lied to even if they're millionaires.

And I haven't abandoned anything. It's about money and its about him not getting everything he wants and opinion that makes him a hypocrite for trying to profess otherwise.

Except all of the evidence points away from that. You yourself have said that he could have gone elsewhere if it were about money. He didn't like how he was treated. People feel that way.

And now you're just straight up using hypocrite as a synonym for liar which...yeah.

No. Again, you're just labelling your interpretation as gospel. The Reds couldn't give any more money to Phillips because they were giving it to Votto. So they didn't lie. And if Phillips didn't like that he was a lower priority, well that's just really too bad for him, but again, there's no lying there. Nobody is saying the Reds are poor, just that they had a budget and they allocated more of it to Votto.

And I understand that Phillips feels slighted and lied to, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to see it that way.

 

[Kin]

No. Again, you're just labelling your interpretation as gospel. The Reds couldn't give any more money to Phillips because they were giving it to Votto. So they didn't lie.

No, you're just inventing gospel from things even the Reds haven't said. You're just making stuff up because it fits your prejudices against Phillips. Sure, they might have a budget but there's no reason to think that they're pressed up against the max of it. Even they haven't said that. And for the umpteenth time, it's the decision to give that money to Votto that's at issue. It's pretty clear from his comments that they didn't communicate that the reason they were holding to the dollar figure on Phillips was because of Votto. Would it not be lying if the addendum to "We can't pay you more" was "...because we want to keep that money ourselves" or "...because we want to light that money on fire"? No. Can't is an absolute. If they said can't, that was not true. They decided not to. That's not the same thing.

And if Phillips didn't like that he was a lower priority, well that's just really too bad for him, but again, there's no lying there. Nobody is saying the Reds are poor, just that they had a budget and they allocated more of it to Votto.

Yes, again, you are entirely inventing the idea that because they gave what they did to Votto that they couldn't give more to Phillips. That has absolutely no basis in fact.

And I understand that Phillips feels slighted and lied to, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to see it that way.

Okay, here's the thing: All this was about? Was a statement by Phillips about how he felt. That's it. He felt disrespected, he felt lied to. He's still very happy to be a ballplayer, still very happy to be making a lot money there's no shortage of gratitude. He didn't like the contract negotiations. A momentary expression of displeasure in a much longer piece.

And that it's being picked up and presented as "Phillips thinks 72 million dollars is a slap in the face" by the media despite that emphatically not being the case and most of the people, including yourself, greatly misrepresenting what he's saying and challenging the validity of another person's feelings based on a negotiation that they had no part in? That says something kind of lousy.