2011/2012 Injury Thread

[cw]

Pat Morris joins "HockeyCentral" to discuss Chris Pronger's season being over and to talk about the timetable for his return.
http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20111216_124442_8772

Early in that interview Pat comments about Pronger's other career injuries:
13 career surgeries
and
8 of those surgeries in the last year

... on top of his concussion.

He's a pretty battered player.

He also said that Pronger "has finally taken the doctors advice" regarding "resting that body part" (his head). Sounds like he may have been trying to play through it.

Pat also said that the doctors were definitive on Pronger not playing again this year and that given how he's feeling, Pronger will follow their advice. Pronger will definitely not be back this season.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Further to my post above:
link

Flyers plan for season without Pronger
During a news conference at the Skate Zone in Voorhees, Holmgren said Pronger was concussed when he was hit in the right eye by a stick against Toronto on Oct. 24. As it turned out, Pronger unknowingly played five games with a concussion. At the time, the Flyers thought Pronger had a virus.
...
Asked hypothetically on Friday what would happen if Pronger was feeling better as the playoffs arrived, Holmgren said: "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I think right now, Chris is not an option. If he gets better somewhere over the next month [or] months, we'll address that when we get there."

It surprised me when they said that Grabbo's stick caused the concussion so I reviewed it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gMU33FKIko
and I can see why it might have.

IIRC I read a story that said the Hanzal hit and another one ( can't think of it ) compounded the issue kind of like Crosby vs Steckel/Hedman, I remember scoffing at the notion that Grabbo's stick alone did that too somewhere in the fora.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?hlg=20112012,2,262&event=PHI709

Hadn't seen that hit. Looks worse in terms of concussion potential than what Grabbo did.

He fell into the boards against Carolina three nights before that. Couldn't quickly find that video.

Saw him interviewed a few days after the Grabbo eye injury. He seemed pretty sharp.

This hit (Hanzal) is one of the least dangerous hits I've ever seen. Not only is there very little contact, but there's a distinct lack of speed/contact in the hit itself.

How this can result in a serious concussion is beyond me. Pronger must have been playing less than 100%.

It's a shame it happened but I don't see any fault with regards to Hanzal.

 

[bustaheims]

At his age, a year away from the game (assuming he's even good to go to start next season) with all the other damage to his body . . . this could be the end for Pronger as an NHL player.

 

[Sucker Punch]

Don't worry, by the time Pronger announces his retirement, he will have been replaced by Jared Cowen anyway.

 

[cw]

At his age, a year away from the game (assuming he's even good to go to start next season) with all the other damage to his body . . . this could be the end for Pronger as an NHL player.

From the sounds of it, his return to play seems less than likely.

With his over 35 deal, he can't easily retire any time soon because the Flyers would have to count his cap hit.

If he gets paid in full for all but the last two years of his current deal, he'll retire having made $112 mil in salary alone (which may be the highest to date at that moment in time).

As of 2009-10, here are the top 10:
Jaromir Jagr ($ 98,038,851)
Joe Sakic ($93,174,047)
Nicklas Lidstrom ($87,965,000)
Paul Kariya ($82,686,100)
Keith Tkachuk ($80,498,674)
Rob Blake ($80,487,982)
Mats Sundin ($79,669,132)
Chris Pronger ($78,700,500)
Mike Modano ($74,587,650)
Pavel Bure ($66,369,794)

 

[maplesyrup]

With his over 35 deal, he can't easily retire any time soon because the Flyers would have to count his cap hit.

Potentially not a problem for Philly to deal with though. All they have to do is cheat (for want of better word... or maybe it's the correct one) like the Bruins are with Savard and just keep him on the IR throughout the duration of the injury. If Pronger is okay in doing that and not retiring in the same way Savard is doing that with the Bruins then the hit won't count. 

 

[oldman]

They did the same thing with Rathje. It's a loophole in the cba and the GM's know it. All the player has to do is make an attempt(wink,wink) to come back and play. I would not be surprised to see him replaced by Weber or Suter next year if he decides to not return.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

They did the same thing with Rathje.

And Hatcher. And are currently doing it with Laperriere.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

All they have to do is cheat (for want of better word... or maybe it's the correct one) like the Bruins are with Savard and just keep him on the IR throughout the duration of the injury.

Just to clarify, the Bruins aren't really exploiting a loophole or anything. Savard is still only 34 years old, so his contract won't ever fall under the 35+ rule where it counts against the cap regardless.

 

[princedpw]

They did the same thing with Rathje. It's a loophole in the cba and the GM's know it. All the player has to do is make an attempt(wink,wink) to come back and play. I would not be surprised to see him replaced by Weber or Suter next year if he decides to not return.

Given what happened with the Kovalchuk deal and the surrounding discussion of the long-term deals with minimal end payments, won't the league be looking closely at the Pronger deal and penalize them if they are attempting to circumvent the cap?  I would certainly hope so.  Or is it only Toronto that ever gets penalized despite the fact that we play uber-strictly by the rules (eg: the Frogren thing under Fletcher in which we were stripped of a 4th-round pick for no reason?)

 

[maplesyrup]

All they have to do is cheat (for want of better word... or maybe it's the correct one) like the Bruins are with Savard and just keep him on the IR throughout the duration of the injury.

Just to clarify, the Bruins aren't really exploiting a loophole or anything. Savard is still only 34 years old, so his contract won't ever fall under the 35+ rule where it counts against the cap regardless.

Ak... Okay. I thought he was 35.

 

[bustaheims]

Given what happened with the Kovalchuk deal and the surrounding discussion of the long-term deals with minimal end payments, won't the league be looking closely at the Pronger deal and penalize them if they are attempting to circumvent the cap?  I would certainly hope so.  Or is it only Toronto that ever gets penalized despite the fact that we play uber-strictly by the rules (eg: the Frogren thing under Fletcher in which we were stripped of a 4th-round pick for no reason?)

It's not really cap circumvention. Unless things change in the upcoming CBA, everything will be perfectly legal. The precedent has already been set here. Unless the league finds that Pronger is, in fact, healthy enough to play, there's nothing they can do.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Given what happened with the Kovalchuk deal and the surrounding discussion of the long-term deals with minimal end payments, won't the league be looking closely at the Pronger deal and penalize them if they are attempting to circumvent the cap?  I would certainly hope so.  Or is it only Toronto that ever gets penalized despite the fact that we play uber-strictly by the rules (eg: the Frogren thing under Fletcher in which we were stripped of a 4th-round pick for no reason?)

It's not really cap circumvention. Unless things change in the upcoming CBA, everything will be perfectly legal. The precedent has already been set here. Unless the league finds that Pronger is, in fact, healthy enough to play, there's nothing they can do.

Pronger is signed for next 5 years. It will be hard to believe he will just sit around and do nothing just so the Flyers can have some cap space.

 

[maplesyrup]

Given what happened with the Kovalchuk deal and the surrounding discussion of the long-term deals with minimal end payments, won't the league be looking closely at the Pronger deal and penalize them if they are attempting to circumvent the cap?  I would certainly hope so.  Or is it only Toronto that ever gets penalized despite the fact that we play uber-strictly by the rules (eg: the Frogren thing under Fletcher in which we were stripped of a 4th-round pick for no reason?)

It's not really cap circumvention. Unless things change in the upcoming CBA, everything will be perfectly legal. The precedent has already been set here. Unless the league finds that Pronger is, in fact, healthy enough to play, there's nothing they can do.

Pronger is signed for next 5 years. It will be hard to believe he will just sit around and do nothing just so the Flyers can have some cap space.

Why would he have to sit around and do nothing? He could still pursue other business ventures as many other active players do. Also, he's doing the team a big favour and I see no reason why the PA would be opposed so who exactly would he be upsetting? 

 

[bustaheims]

Pronger is signed for next 5 years. It will be hard to believe he will just sit around and do nothing just so the Flyers can have some cap space.

If the doctor don't clear him to play, then he doesn't have much choice but to find something other than hockey to occupy his time until his contract expires.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Pronger is signed for next 5 years. It will be hard to believe he will just sit around and do nothing just so the Flyers can have some cap space.

If the doctor don't clear him to play, then he doesn't have much choice but to find something other than hockey to occupy his time until his contract expires.

Yeah but can you be on IR and have a full time job in broadcasting? Seems like a clear CBA work around.

 

[cw]

Given what happened with the Kovalchuk deal and the surrounding discussion of the long-term deals with minimal end payments, won't the league be looking closely at the Pronger deal and penalize them if they are attempting to circumvent the cap?  I would certainly hope so.  Or is it only Toronto that ever gets penalized despite the fact that we play uber-strictly by the rules (eg: the Frogren thing under Fletcher in which we were stripped of a 4th-round pick for no reason?)

It's not really cap circumvention. Unless things change in the upcoming CBA, everything will be perfectly legal. The precedent has already been set here. Unless the league finds that Pronger is, in fact, healthy enough to play, there's nothing they can do.

Pronger is signed for next 5 years. It will be hard to believe he will just sit around and do nothing just so the Flyers can have some cap space.

With regard to posts above, Rathje, Primeau & Hatcher were all signed to their last contract before they were 35 years old so the rule with respect to the cap is different. They could retire early without it impacting the Flyers cap. Players 35 or older can't retire without it impacting the cap if their deals are beyond a year.

The last two years of his deal, Pronger is at the league minimum so that's not a big issue - the Flyers could absorb that if he retired by then.

This season and next, I don't think anyone could complain about. If Pronger takes a year+ off saying he wants to see how he is doing with his concussion, that carries him until the end of 2012-13 season and not many eyebrows would be raised.

That leaves two seasons of substantial dough:
2013-14 at $7 mil
2014-15 at $4 mil

From there, it's a bit of a guess:
Technically, if he's still unable to play, Pronger could say that he's still trying to come back in 2013-14. Ignoring the upcoming CBA, that would probably stand between the Flyers and Pronger unless someone makes a complaint that the Flyers are circumventing the cap. Then it would have to be reviewed by the NHL or an arbitrator depending on the source of the complaint.

By then though, the league should have a new CBA. If the rules on this change (and I suspect they will), they may have to consider whether they would grandfather the existing contracts like Pronger's.

It's not clear cut to me on how this will all go. What we can count on is the Flyers doing everything they can to bury his contract if they need to such that it won't count against their cap.

 

[oldman]

great points cw.

it sad though that some clubs can bury contracts like that and pay players not hurting their bottom line too much. The owners like Comcast will just up everyone's cable bill a couple bucks and pay for it.
:-[

 

[cw]

It's not clear cut to me on how this will all go. What we can count on is the Flyers doing everything they can to bury his contract if they need to such that it won't count against their cap.

I should add to that:
which I feel was their escape plan all along if Pronger couldn't play until the end of his deal. And that was a likely possibility given his injury history/wear and tear from his style of play that was raised on this site when the deal originally got signed.

 

[L K]

Where it hurts the Flyers is in the offseason when his 4.9M cap hit counts until the start of training camp.