Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[Andy007]

Only in Toronto would fans be calling for the head of a 11-5 coach.

Or maybe people who like to frequent discussion boards like to delve deeper into a team's play than simply looking at their record and shooting rainbows out their rear-ends?

I'm fine with that but if one's going to delve, why not point out some of the positive things too? - Okay, we're getting outshot game after game and that can't keep going but there are also some impressive things him and his staff have done too. - Like (dare I say) build elite special teams.  Okay, some of that's on the goaltending but not exclusively. I'll admit, I've only seen 5 games this year in it's entirety but I've seen tons of very heady plays when either up or down a player.

I mean seriously, where would this team be with a different coach, 11-5?

Obviously it depends a little on the coach but I don't think there are many viable coaching options who would fare any worse with a team that has this calibre of goaltending and, to a lesser extent, forward depth.

This isn't a team that just gets outshot a lot; this is a team that can't clear the puck out of their own end. And this happens almost every game for significant portions of the game. And this isn't based on five games; I've watched every game (besides the Leafs TV broadcasts). This, defensively, is as worse as any Leaf team I have ever watched.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't know how much credit for the special teams should really go to Carlyle any way, as it's largely been controlled by his assistants - especially when it comes to the PK. That being said, the PK hasn't looked quite as good as last season, but the goaltending has helped cover that up, while the PP is successful largely because of the offensive talent the Leafs can put out there rather than any system they've been utilizing. It would take a pretty poor coach not to be able to get high-end production from the PP with the talent available to him with this roster.

 

[maplesyrup]

I don't know how much credit for the special teams should really go to Carlyle any way, as it's largely been controlled by his assistants - especially when it comes to the PK.

I'm thinking he deserves some credit for the special teams. Even if it's only a little (and neither of us know), the assistants themselves were Carlyle decisions so let's at the very least, let's him credit for that.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm thinking he deserves some credit for the special teams. Even if it's only a little (and neither of us know), the assistants themselves were Carlyle decisions so let's at the very least, let's him credit for that.

I'm not sure they were necessarily Carlyle's decision, as both Greg Cronin and Scott Gordon were assistant coaches under Ron Wilson in his last season with the Leafs. At most, Carlyle decided not to get rid of them - and I'm not convinced it was entirely his decision.

 

[L K]

It's really hard for me to judge what is going on.  I really don't like the style of play from this team.  Getting outshot because you play a counter-attack style of game is fine, but the Leafs are horrendous at clearing the zone 5on5.  It's not like they are cheating passes either, they seem to just be incapable of chipping the puck out along the boards. 

Last year the Leafs really did a number of Boston in the playoffs when they got away from clearing the puck along the boards and started using high chips into the neutral zone and allowing their speed to keep the Bruins on their heels.  I don't know why they don't use this a little more, especially against some of the slower teams.

When you look at their record, they are beating up on the "bad" teams.
Philly, Columbus, NJ, Edmonton, Calgary
4-1-0 (two overtime/shootout wins)

Against the cream of the league they are doing ok:
Vancouver, Pittsburgh, Colorado*, Anaheim, Chicago
2-3-0

Against the middle pack they are fine:
Montreal, Ottawa, Carolina, Nashville, Minnesota
5-1-0

So they are beating the teams that they should and are holding somewhat close to .500 against the tougher teams.  If they keep that up their record will be fine. 

So I agree that it's kind of hard to clamour for a coaching change, but this really isn't a sustainable style of play.  CORSI is one thing, constantly being hemmed in your own zone and playing defense will eventually tire the team out and it could have us headed for a team that falls off a cliff in the second half.  Especially in a compressed schedule season due to the Olympics. 

 

[maplesyrup]

I'm thinking he deserves some credit for the special teams. Even if it's only a little (and neither of us know), the assistants themselves were Carlyle decisions so let's at the very least, let's him credit for that.

I'm not sure they were necessarily Carlyle's decision, as both Greg Cronin and Scott Gordon were assistant coaches under Ron Wilson in his last season with the Leafs. At most, Carlyle decided not to get rid of them - and I'm not convinced it was entirely his decision.

I'd be shocked to learn that he didn't have complete control over who is on his staff.

 

[nutman]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

 

[Jalili]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

Those people are looking past the record. Sure, the team is 11-5.

What if, the team was 5-11 due to bad fortune and was actually playing quite a bit better than their record suggested?

There'd be lots of people stating that their record isn't indicative of their actual play (and rightly so).

This is the opposite of that. There are people who think the team's record isn't indicative of their current level of play.

 

[bustaheims]

I'd be shocked to learn that he didn't have complete control over who is on his staff.

I wouldn't be surprised if, when he was brought in mid-season, he was told to finish the year with the guys that were already in place (as that happens quite frequently) and, after the season, they'll look into bringing guys he might like instead. He then ended up liking Cronin and Gordon, but, really, I can't give him credit for bringing in guys that were already there.

 

[TML fan]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

The point is that they won't win more often than not if they keep this up. It's a long season. They are 11-5 now but where will they be at game 82? Nobody wants to see this team fall off a cliff again.

 

[L K]

Also as far as the PK goes.  I think a lot of it has to do with better personnel on the roster. 

Having Bernier AND Reimer on the PK has been a huge advantage.
Adding guys like McLement really makes the PK inherently better.

Reimer has a .927 PK SV% and Bernier has a .919 SV%.  Of guys with at least 20 save attempts that puts them 9th and 11th in the league.  When your goaltender is capable of stopping the puck on the 1st attempt it means a lot for your PK, and the Leafs have guys who are good at clearing the zone on the penalty kill now. 

In 2011-2012 the Leafs top 4 PKers were: Dupuis, Connolly, Steckel and Crabb.
In 2012-2013 the Leafs top 4 PKers were: McLement, Kulemin, Komarov, Bozak
In the 2013-2014 the Leafs top 4 PKers are: McLement, Kulemin, Van Riemsdyk, Raymond

In 2011 the Leafs had four borderline NHLers playing on their PK.  The very next year they completely revamped their personnel.  As much as I disliked Ron Wilson when he was coach, he had some absolutely terrible rosters to work with.  Lots of mediocre players but among those mediocre players they really didn't have any appreciable skills.

That to me is what makes a team or breaks them.  You don't need four dominant lines but what you do need is for your bottom 6 forwards to provide some level of skill that you don't get from your top 6.  That can be faceoff prowess, defensive ability, strong forechecking, the ability to fight/defend teammates, whatever.  But you actually need to have those skills.  The Leafs never really had that under Wilson and that was combined with a mediocre top 6.

 

[TML fan]

It's really hard for me to judge what is going on.  I really don't like the style of play from this team.  Getting outshot because you play a counter-attack style of game is fine, but the Leafs are horrendous at clearing the zone 5on5.  It's not like they are cheating passes either, they seem to just be incapable of chipping the puck out along the boards. 

It's simple. The forwards are too deep. Too easy for the defence to pinch. There's no puck support for the wingers and no outlet for the defencemen.

 

[nutman]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

The point is that they won't win more often than not if they keep this up. It's a long season. They are 11-5 now but where will they be at game 82? Nobody wants to see this team fall off a cliff again.

I would rather 22 solid shots then 40 that where half of them are just basically a soft shot on net. this shot on net thing is just being played to hard by the press. I think for our injury plagued season we have had so far, we are doing great.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

The point is that they won't win more often than not if they keep this up. It's a long season. They are 11-5 now but where will they be at game 82? Nobody wants to see this team fall off a cliff again.

I would rather 22 solid shots then 40 that where half of them are just basically a soft shot on net. this shot on net thing is just being played to hard by the press. I think for our injury plagued season we have had so far, we are doing great.

It doesn't help to make up unrealistic scenarios like getting 40 "soft shots".

 

[nutman]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

The point is that they won't win more often than not if they keep this up. It's a long season. They are 11-5 now but where will they be at game 82? Nobody wants to see this team fall off a cliff again.

I would rather 22 solid shots then 40 that where half of them are just basically a soft shot on net. this shot on net thing is just being played to hard by the press. I think for our injury plagued season we have had so far, we are doing great.

It doesn't help to make up unrealistic scenarios like getting 40 "soft shots".

Sorry for you.. I will put it this way. 20 out of 40 soft shots.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

The point is that they won't win more often than not if they keep this up. It's a long season. They are 11-5 now but where will they be at game 82? Nobody wants to see this team fall off a cliff again.

I would rather 22 solid shots then 40 that where half of them are just basically a soft shot on net. this shot on net thing is just being played to hard by the press. I think for our injury plagued season we have had so far, we are doing great.

It doesn't help to make up unrealistic scenarios like getting 40 "soft shots".

Sorry for you.. I will put it this way. 20 out of 40 soft shots.

But it's not like the Leafs get more high quality chances than their opposition.  They've just been cashing in on their chances at a higher rate than their opponents so far.  It's not like they're only allowing easy saves for their goalies.

 

[nutman]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

The point is that they won't win more often than not if they keep this up. It's a long season. They are 11-5 now but where will they be at game 82? Nobody wants to see this team fall off a cliff again.

I would rather 22 solid shots then 40 that where half of them are just basically a soft shot on net. this shot on net thing is just being played to hard by the press. I think for our injury plagued season we have had so far, we are doing great.

It doesn't help to make up unrealistic scenarios like getting 40 "soft shots".

Sorry for you.. I will put it this way. 20 out of 40 soft shots.

But it's not like the Leafs get more high quality chances than their opposition.  They've just been cashing in on their chances at a higher rate than their opponents so far.  It's not like they're only allowing easy saves for their goalies.

But with the goaltending we have we can afford to make that extra pass to have a better chance to score. while other teams need to shoot shoot shoot.

 

[L K]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

The point is that they won't win more often than not if they keep this up. It's a long season. They are 11-5 now but where will they be at game 82? Nobody wants to see this team fall off a cliff again.

I would rather 22 solid shots then 40 that where half of them are just basically a soft shot on net. this shot on net thing is just being played to hard by the press. I think for our injury plagued season we have had so far, we are doing great.

It doesn't help to make up unrealistic scenarios like getting 40 "soft shots".

Sorry for you.. I will put it this way. 20 out of 40 soft shots.

But it's not like the Leafs get more high quality chances than their opposition.  They've just been cashing in on their chances at a higher rate than their opponents so far.  It's not like they're only allowing easy saves for their goalies.

Let's even say that the Leafs goaltenders are having to make 15-20 good saves (and good doesn't always equal should be a goal, but it's either a save with traffic in front of the net, a good quality slap shot, or shots from in close.  The Leafs are getting 18-25 shots in those games so they are getting 10-15 good shots of their own.  They are still getting outchanced. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks. 11 and 5!!!. I think for the injurys we have been through and the new players we have added, this team is as solid as you could expect it to be.  why pick it apart when you could be enjoying it. I think its non leaf fans that are just egging on some hard core leaf fans. because no real leaf fan is going to whine about there team when its 11-5. who care if we get out shot, as long as we win more often then not. we will tighten up as the season goes on.

The point is that they won't win more often than not if they keep this up. It's a long season. They are 11-5 now but where will they be at game 82? Nobody wants to see this team fall off a cliff again.

I would rather 22 solid shots then 40 that where half of them are just basically a soft shot on net. this shot on net thing is just being played to hard by the press. I think for our injury plagued season we have had so far, we are doing great.

It doesn't help to make up unrealistic scenarios like getting 40 "soft shots".

Sorry for you.. I will put it this way. 20 out of 40 soft shots.

But it's not like the Leafs get more high quality chances than their opposition.  They've just been cashing in on their chances at a higher rate than their opponents so far.  It's not like they're only allowing easy saves for their goalies.

But with the goaltending we have we can afford to make that extra pass to have a better chance to score. while other teams need to shoot shoot shoot.

Like Vancouver needed to shoot shoot shoot on the Leafs to make up for their terrible goaltending right?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Ok the team is 11-5 and I am reading this team has no good players, and our defence sucks.

What on earth are you reading? Most people here would say that our goaltending, defence, and forwards are the best we've seen in a very, very long time. And that our wingers and goaltending are among the best in the league. It's our mediocre coach who people have a problem with.

edit: And Clarkson, but that guy sucks.