The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[Tigger]

I still don't think firing the coach is a magic bullet, and could even be counter-productive.

I can see it if the team has tuned out the coach and what not but that sure doesn't seem to be the case with Toronto.

They had a real nice stretch of good pk'ing, don't know why they can't get back to it.

They take too many penalties for my liking but hey, something else to blame Wilson for...

When basically everything else they are doing is going really really well and the one thing (PK) is really really bad, changing the HEAD coach makes little sense. 

Maybe they need to look at this Greg Cronin guy who is the PK coach... experiment failed? Make a change there. 

PK last night was one mistake per, and Buffalo capitalized every time. 

1. Schenn stupidly chasing the Sabers player up the boards for whatever reason.  + weak clearing attempt. Leaving his zone... he does this a lot, leaves Gardiner alone to deal with 2 men in front all the time.

2. 5 on 3, but a weak one to give up on the rush into the zone.  Paying too much attention to the guy down low, nobody saw Ennis.

3. Reimer was horrible

Phaneuf's decision to give Kassian a bit of a run didn't help either.

Cronin got them going for a 10 game or so stretch, noticeable improvement in the stats and with their play, though that was mostly with Jonas but I'd give him more rope if it was my choice. Reimer looks a little fuzzy still to me, bad last night on some plays for sure.

5 on 3's are a killer to begin with never mind when you're a struggling pk unit, they better watch themselves against Vancouver, it's their bread and butter.

Funny though, in all this with Martin ( good pk record ) fired I don't see anyone calling for Quenneville's head on a platter.

 

[cw]

If they hold at their current 73% PK rate, that will set a dubious record since '98 (as far back as I could look on NHL.com) as the worst PK over that time. It would be the third time Wilson and his club have set that record ('09 & '10).

Having said that, 73% wouldn't get them into the top 10 worst since '63-64 when they started keeping PK records but it's getting close.

In win%, the Leafs are tied with four teams for 14th with five more teams close behind them.

Should Florida make the playoffs and the Leafs not, the Leafs would be the only team to miss the playoffs since the lockout and Wilson would have been at the helm for four of those seven seasons.

Burke has to know that if the Leafs miss the playoffs this season, keeping Wilson would be indefensible (even though it would not be all Wilson's fault).

With Wilson's record, even though the Leafs are pretty close to where they were expected to be, I don't understand how Burke could be discussing an extension at this point in time. In fact, I doubt the accuracy of the media report.

 

[Zee]

If they hold at their current 73% PK rate, that will set a dubious record since '98 (as far back as I could look on NHL.com) as the worst PK over that time. It would be the third time Wilson and his club have set that record ('09 & '10).

Having said that, 73% wouldn't get them into the top 10 worst since '63-64 when they started keeping PK records but it's getting close.

In win%, the Leafs are tied with four teams for 14th with five more teams close behind them.

Should Florida make the playoffs and the Leafs not, the Leafs would be the only team to miss the playoffs since the lockout and Wilson would have been at the helm for four of those seven seasons.

Burke has to know that if the Leafs miss the playoffs this season, keeping Wilson would be indefensible (even though it would not be all Wilson's fault).

With Wilson's record, even though the Leafs are pretty close to where they were expected to be, I don't understand how Burke could be discussing an extension at this point in time. In fact, I doubt the accuracy of the media report.

I have to agree with you here. Why on earth would Burke be considering an extension now when the playoffs are far from a certainty at this point.

 

[Tigger]

A couple bad games won't change my opinion that the Leafs are improving and developing.

They have a ways to go, sure, I doubt Burke ever believed this team was winning the cup and I also doubt he's done making it over by a long shot.

The pk isn't really improving at all that what's most frustrating right now because it is hindering the entire effort and causing the team to slip out of a playoff spot.

Patience has to run out at some point, and sooner rather than later because despite all the 'young team' hoopla 2/3 of our forward group are UFAs in a couple of years, and Kessel that we sold the farm for is an UFA the year after that.

I see you're back to the Kessel mistake, whatever, the pk isn't a time machine and the future success and arrangement of the Leafs roster will only be influenced by one area so much.

They did show significant improvement in pk execution for a stretch, was noted in the forums, certainly a bad effort in that regard versus Washington and last night amp up the concern but there's lots of hockey left, by the end the Leafs will get what they deserve one way or another.

Honestly though, as frustrating as it is to have our team out of the playoffs for soooo long, I can't let that mitigate my enthusiasm for watching this team grow and develop into a top team ( yes there's 1 part hope in there... ). They're closer now than they were last year but they have a ways to go, no matter, worrying over one stat or one game won't make a difference in the long run.

 

[Tigger]

If they hold at their current 73% PK rate, that will set a dubious record since '98 (as far back as I could look on NHL.com) as the worst PK over that time. It would be the third time Wilson and his club have set that record ('09 & '10).

Having said that, 73% wouldn't get them into the top 10 worst since '63-64 when they started keeping PK records but it's getting close.

In win%, the Leafs are tied with four teams for 14th with five more teams close behind them.

Should Florida make the playoffs and the Leafs not, the Leafs would be the only team to miss the playoffs since the lockout and Wilson would have been at the helm for four of those seven seasons.

Burke has to know that if the Leafs miss the playoffs this season, keeping Wilson would be indefensible (even though it would not be all Wilson's fault).

With Wilson's record, even though the Leafs are pretty close to where they were expected to be, I don't understand how Burke could be discussing an extension at this point in time. In fact, I doubt the accuracy of the media report.

I have to agree with you here. Why on earth would Burke be considering an extension now when the playoffs are far from a certainty at this point.

Unless the discussion was 'when we're 30 points ahead of 8th we'll put it in writing' I'm not buying it either.

For my money Wilson shouldn't get an extension until the Leafs make it to the playoffs, plain and simple. If not, he's toast.

I also don't think another coach would fare much better with this team right now, frankly, however should the Leafs have a real big slide ( which I don't expect ) then things could change pretty quickly and Wilson might not make it to the end of the season.

 

[azzurri63]

Wilson should have been gone long ago. As I mentioned before the strong tie between him and Burke is a detriment to this team. Something has got to give. Has the team improved improved over the last couple years? I would say yes but is it due to the coaching or the change of the players? There are areas we have definitely improved but we are spinning the wheels I think in too many aspects of the game. The PP although improved lately has shown promise but really don't understand why it is so difficult. The PK I don't even want to go there as you know my view on that. G.A.A. again pathetic and always has been since Wilson got here. Goaltending definitely a part of the problem but we have never been sound defensively during Wilson's tenure. A lot has not changed in my opinion and it boils down to the guys behind the bench.

 

[Bender]

A couple bad games won't change my opinion that the Leafs are improving and developing.

They have a ways to go, sure, I doubt Burke ever believed this team was winning the cup and I also doubt he's done making it over by a long shot.

The pk isn't really improving at all that what's most frustrating right now because it is hindering the entire effort and causing the team to slip out of a playoff spot.

Patience has to run out at some point, and sooner rather than later because despite all the 'young team' hoopla 2/3 of our forward group are UFAs in a couple of years, and Kessel that we sold the farm for is an UFA the year after that.

I see you're back to the Kessel mistake, whatever, the pk isn't a time machine and the future success and arrangement of the Leafs roster will only be influenced by one area so much.

They did show significant improvement in pk execution for a stretch, was noted in the forums, certainly a bad effort in that regard versus Washington and last night amp up the concern but there's lots of hockey left, by the end the Leafs will get what they deserve one way or another.

Honestly though, as frustrating as it is to have our team out of the playoffs for soooo long, I can't let that mitigate my enthusiasm for watching this team grow and develop into a top team ( yes there's 1 part hope in there... ). They're closer now than they were last year but they have a ways to go, no matter, worrying over one stat or one game won't make a difference in the long run.

I guess nobody ever turned over their roster before. UFA = deathwish. BOOK IT.

 

[Bender]

If they hold at their current 73% PK rate, that will set a dubious record since '98 (as far back as I could look on NHL.com) as the worst PK over that time. It would be the third time Wilson and his club have set that record ('09 & '10).

Having said that, 73% wouldn't get them into the top 10 worst since '63-64 when they started keeping PK records but it's getting close.

In win%, the Leafs are tied with four teams for 14th with five more teams close behind them.

Should Florida make the playoffs and the Leafs not, the Leafs would be the only team to miss the playoffs since the lockout and Wilson would have been at the helm for four of those seven seasons.

Burke has to know that if the Leafs miss the playoffs this season, keeping Wilson would be indefensible (even though it would not be all Wilson's fault).

With Wilson's record, even though the Leafs are pretty close to where they were expected to be, I don't understand how Burke could be discussing an extension at this point in time. In fact, I doubt the accuracy of the media report.

I have to agree with you here. Why on earth would Burke be considering an extension now when the playoffs are far from a certainty at this point.

Unless the discussion was 'when we're 30 points ahead of 8th we'll put it in writing' I'm not buying it either.

For my money Wilson shouldn't get an extension until the Leafs make it to the playoffs, plain and simple. If not, he's toast.

I also don't think another coach would fare much better with this team right now, frankly, however should the Leafs have a real big slide ( which I don't expect ) then things could change pretty quickly and Wilson might not make it to the end of the season.

Agreed on all counts.

 

[Bender]

Wilson should have been gone long ago. As I mentioned before the strong tie between him and Burke is a detriment to this team. Something has got to give. Has the team improved improved over the last couple years? I would say yes but is it due to the coaching or the change of the players? There are areas we have definitely improved but we are spinning the wheels I think in too many aspects of the game. The PP although improved lately has shown promise but really don't understand why it is so difficult. The PK I don't even want to go there as you know my view on that. G.A.A. again pathetic and always has been since Wilson got here. Goaltending definitely a part of the problem but we have never been sound defensively during Wilson's tenure. A lot has not changed in my opinion and it boils down to the guys behind the bench.

PP is third in the league. Just FYI.

 

[azzurri63]

Wilson should have been gone long ago. As I mentioned before the strong tie between him and Burke is a detriment to this team. Something has got to give. Has the team improved improved over the last couple years? I would say yes but is it due to the coaching or the change of the players? There are areas we have definitely improved but we are spinning the wheels I think in too many aspects of the game. The PP although improved lately has shown promise but really don't understand why it is so difficult. The PK I don't even want to go there as you know my view on that. G.A.A. again pathetic and always has been since Wilson got here. Goaltending definitely a part of the problem but we have never been sound defensively during Wilson's tenure. A lot has not changed in my opinion and it boils down to the guys behind the bench.

PP is third in the league. Just FYI.

I know where the PP is. I said it has improved and drastically but if you recall it was horrible a month ago and earlier in the season. Like I said I don't know why it is so difficult. The biggest thing I see with the speciality teams when they are horrible is that nothing changes. That is the coaching 100%. Did you notice when the PP starting improving what they did. They left a guy in the slot and used him quite a bit and things started to change. Small change made a difference. The PK on the other hand I don't see anything different. They are way too soft on the puck, don't pressure the D, don't block shots and are often running around.

 

[Tigger]

really don't understand why it is so difficult.

There are lots of reasons, 29 just for starters but mostly it's a process and that could be causing you some grief I suppose. 

A lot has not changed in my opinion and it boils down to the guys behind the bench.

Which ones, the new guys? I thought you said the team improved because of the players but not a lot has changed?

Also, if the PP was horrible a month ago and it's near the top now it should give you something to think about, no?, or are you seriously going to blame all bad things on coaching without acknowledging any good?

 

[Tigger]

I guess nobody ever turned over their roster before. UFA = deathwish. BOOK IT.

There are certainly better things to worry about, it's fair to note it as I'm sure most GM's do but yeah, I think the Leafs are ok in that department, in fact, kind of placed well considering the players that might be available over the next two years.

 

[Bender]

I guess nobody ever turned over their roster before. UFA = deathwish. BOOK IT.

There are certainly better things to worry about, it's fair to note it as I'm sure most GM's do but yeah, I think the Leafs are ok in that department, in fact, kind of placed well considering the players that might be available over the next two years.

I just feel like the whole UFA thing is overstated ad nauseum. I mean, yes, some of those players may not stay, but a GM like Burke isn't going to let pretty much all of his good assets go to waste without getting anything in return. He'll also be looking to retain at reasonable prices.

It's as if having UFAs come up is disastrous: It's always been part of the game (although the age requirement has come down). But IMO it's just a matter of how you handle those players.

 

[lamajama]

Of the 2 special teams, the PP is the hardest one to improve, yet they have.

The PK is the by-far more "teachable" process. Yet the Leafs still flounder - certainly Reimer's performance does not help but his guys certainly give
the opposition Grade A chances.

Burke has talked about the Blue and White disease and accountability and this has caused him to turn over the roster almost 100%. So he's either picked the wrong players or needs to hold the teachers accountable.

For the record, Burke couldn't pick a goalie in Vancouver either.

 

[Tigger]

I guess nobody ever turned over their roster before. UFA = deathwish. BOOK IT.

There are certainly better things to worry about, it's fair to note it as I'm sure most GM's do but yeah, I think the Leafs are ok in that department, in fact, kind of placed well considering the players that might be available over the next two years.

I just feel like the whole UFA thing is overstated ad nauseum. I mean, yes, some of those players may not stay, but a GM like Burke isn't going to let pretty much all of his good assets go to waste without getting anything in return. He'll also be looking to retain at reasonable prices.

It's as if having UFAs come up is disastrous: It's always been part of the game (although the age requirement has come down). But IMO it's just a matter of how you handle those players.

I think the Kaberle deal sort of hints at how Burke can deal with it...

Maybe some are projecting their fear from past experiences like the Sundin debacle but I don't think it's particularly well founded.

 

[Tigger]

Burke has talked about the Blue and White disease and accountability and this has caused him to turn over the roster almost 100%. So he's either picked the wrong players or needs to hold the teachers accountable.

I don't think it's that black and white, you could go on changing the players forever, getting the right ones under the cap is no easy task. The talent level has improved on the club, no doubt, Burke has some work to do to get them over the top into contender status while doing his 'two steps forward one step back' talent acquisition process but looks to be making headway.

Wilson is a pro coach and if he's turfed then the next one will more than likely be pro as well but it takes time, the Leafs really were that bad and mismanaged for quite a while.

Fwiw bringing in two new assistant coaches is an example of holding the 'teachers' accountable while also holding the players accountable.

 

[pnjunction]

I heard Terry Murray and Jacques Martin are available now 

Jacques Martin, interesting.  Montreal who just fired him is only 2 pts behind us but their PK is 2nd in the league at almost 90%.

They're still behind a team that has the lowest PK in the league. What does that tell you?

It tells me that if they shored up their PK they'd be a pretty damn good team while the Canadiens rely on their PK for success.

This has to be one of the first times I've read someone use a team that his LOWER than us in the standings to prove we're worse than they are.

My point wasn't that we are worse, just that Martin might know how to fix a PK when Wilson clearly doesn't. Not saying it's a slam dunk decision either. As someone else said we do have things going right, but it does really suck to watch our terrible PK torpedo it all.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Of the 2 special teams, the PP is the hardest one to improve, yet they have.

The PK is the by-far more "teachable" process. Yet the Leafs still flounder - certainly Reimer's performance does
not help but his guys certainly give the opposition Grade A chances.

Burke has talked about the Blue and White disease and accountability and this has caused him to turn over the
roster almost 100%. So he's either picked the wrong
players or needs to hold the teachers accountable.

For the record, Burke couldn't pick a goalie in Vancouver either.

The PP is something players all look forward to do -- you simply score goals with the advantage. But, the PK requires a different approach as well as a set of players that form the special teams for this particular (not very likeable) PK task.

Either the Leafs do not have a set of steady go-to special teams PK players, or, the ones they have now simply are not for the job.

Further, the coach (& coaching staff) can share some of the blame for the inept PK, then again, when one looks at the improved PP, is it fair to ask -- has it improved because of the right players on the ice for it who know how and what to do?  How much credit does the coach take for the improved PP?

Same for the PK.  As I mentioned prior, is it the wrong set of players or is it that they don't know how to execute?  How much blame does one lay on the coaching staff for this?

 

[pnjunction]

Honestly though, as frustrating as it is to have our team out of the playoffs for soooo long, I can't let that mitigate my enthusiasm for watching this team grow and develop into a top team

I guess nobody ever turned over their roster before. UFA = deathwish. BOOK IT.

OK so you guys don't see a dichotomy between accepting bad performance watching a team grow and develop and that much of the roster is not far from turning over (either to new players or more expensive contracts that increase the cap hit on existing talent). Fine.

I was under the impression that there were windows where things work out under the cap, not to mention timeframes where you need success for a trade to make sense, such as trading several picks/prospects for a player you will lose rights to much sooner.

What we could be looking at is the longer-term equivalent of trading a ton of picks for playoff rentals but never making it out of the 1st round. That's fail and no amount of patience on the part of the fans during the losing process is going to change that.

 

[ZBBM]

I heard Terry Murray and Jacques Martin are available now 

Jacques Martin, interesting.  Montreal who just fired him is only 2 pts behind us but their PK is 2nd in the league at almost 90%.

They're still behind a team that has the lowest PK in the league. What does that tell you?

It tells me that if they shored up their PK they'd be a pretty damn good team while the Canadiens rely on their PK for success.

This has to be one of the first times I've read someone use a team that his LOWER than us in the standings to prove we're worse than they are.

My point wasn't that we are worse, just that Martin might know how to fix a PK when Wilson clearly doesn't. Not saying it's a slam dunk decision either. As someone else said we do have things going right, but it does really suck to watch our terrible PK torpedo it all.

If getting Martin to handle the defense would help the PK, do it.  Seriously.  Right now.  Just add another assistant coach and let Jacques be in charge of the PK.

The other problem with the PK is that Reimer hasn't been good all year.  Not surprising, really, that we would regress some from last season when he was an unknown.  Now all the teams have a book on him and he hasn't been able elevate his game to compensate for it, at least not yet.