Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[bustaheims]

mirtle: Today's story: On the Leafs fourth line, which has 10 shots on goal all season and cost them another game http://t.co/GZvdZJImai

10 shots on goal all season from the 4th line! That's just . . . what?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Player Name	Points/60 Minutes Played
Phil Kessel	2.75
Nazem Kadri	2.49
Dave Bolland	2.47
James van Riemsdyk	2.37
Joffrey Lupul	2.24
Mason Raymond	2.20
Tyler Bozak	1.85
Cody Franson	1.43
Morgan Rielly	1.29
Nikolai Kulemin	1.26
David Clarkson	1.03
Dion Phaneuf	0.92
Paul Ranger	0.87
Jake Gardiner	0.68
Jay McClement	0.27
Carl Gunnarsson	0.11

Bozak has spent time killing penalties which should be considered.

No real point doing that while including SH + PP time.  Even-strength is a better indicator as the majority of the game is ES and provides a far bigger sample (plus it's unfair to those who play a lot on the PK or never on the PP).

At even-strength:

Trevor Smith 2.39
Phil Kessel  2.31
JVR 2.06
Dave Bolland 1.83
Mason Raymond  1.80
Nazem Kadri 1.78
Tyler Bozak 1.68
Nikolai Kulemin 1.57
Joffrey Lupul 1.44

 

[freer]

I will not blame the guys on the fourth line for losing the game. The team as a whole did not show up for the first period. They took unneccessary penalties, Mclaren took the first stupid on followed by Raymond. The winning goal was scored on the fourth line yes, Orr was tripped on a clearing attempt, with no call, Reilly could of also cleared it and did not.

 

[ZBBM]

Screw this.  I want to see the speed game back.  It's like harnessing up Secretariat and making him plow a turnip field.

Bring on the Torpedo!!

 

[Leafaholic99]

Puck movement is horrible, we can't clear the zone properly most of the time, we can't get a cycle going in the offensive zone, the Leafs are hard to watch lately, they need to do something to cause a shakeup, heck even bringing Liles up and playing him for a few games will help, we must have the cap room to bring him up and send down a waiver eligable player.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Screw this.  I want to see the speed game back.  It's like harnessing up Secretariat and making him plow a turnip field.

Bring on the Torpedo!!

This is beautiful, it sums up our situation very nicely.

 

[Hampreacher]

Fire Carlyle and bring in Brent Sutter. My family had season tickets when He coached and was GM in Red Deer if a player did not produce he was gone or on the bench. he is a motivator. Prediction if Leafs have a december like their November Carlyle will be gone.

 

[Stickytape]

I had a look around at some forums and comment sections dating back to around December 1st 2011, when the Ducks announced that they'd fired Carlyle.  When you boil it down, the complaints sound really familiar:

- too many shots against, not enough shots for
- dumb stretch passes
- wasting skilled, speedy players on tough/goon hockey
- system worked great until other teams figured it out; then his inability to adapt led to slumps
- inexplicable line fussiness
- stands there behind the bench and says/does nothing while team collapses

I was on my phone at the time, but I'll try to find the same threads/posts and quote them here.  You wouldn't know they were 2 years old.  I know it's likely that some of this stuff is said of every coach when their team is struggling, but some of it is awfully specific.

 

[MetalRaven]

I had a look around at some forums and comment sections dating back to around December 1st 2011, when the Ducks announced that they'd fired Carlyle.  When you boil it down, the complaints sound really familiar:

- too many shots against, not enough shots for
- dumb stretch passes
- wasting skilled, speedy players on tough/goon hockey
- system worked great until other teams figured it out; then his inability to adapt led to slumps
- inexplicable line fussiness
- stands there behind the bench and says/does nothing while team collapses

I was on my phone at the time, but I'll try to find the same threads/posts and quote them here.  You wouldn't know they were 2 years old.  I know it's likely that some of this stuff is said of every coach when their team is struggling, but some of it is awfully specific.

Wow you add lots of giveaways and inability of d to hold the blue line offensively or get the puck out of the zone defensively and you have pretty much named all the Leafs current woes.

 

[moon111]

The players hate him.  Aaron Ward, Lupul, and Grabovski have all stated their feelings.  The only thing going for Randy Carlyle is he's apart of the old boys club that Brian Burke turned to.  Notice Fire Randy Carlyle has it's own facebook page.  But it's two years old.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I had a look around at some forums and comment sections dating back to around December 1st 2011, when the Ducks announced that they'd fired Carlyle.  When you boil it down, the complaints sound really familiar:

- too many shots against, not enough shots for
- dumb stretch passes
- wasting skilled, speedy players on tough/goon hockey
- system worked great until other teams figured it out; then his inability to adapt led to slumps
- inexplicable line fussiness
- stands there behind the bench and says/does nothing while team collapses

I was on my phone at the time, but I'll try to find the same threads/posts and quote them here.  You wouldn't know they were 2 years old.  I know it's likely that some of this stuff is said of every coach when their team is struggling, but some of it is awfully specific.

This thread on hfboards might be even more handy, it's a current thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1551841

 

[CarltonTheBear]

It's scary how similar the complaints are.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 15m
Loiselle "Liles is the best defenseman outside of the NHL right now. At this point there is no way to fit him into our roster"

First sentence probably has some substance to it. Second sentence? Complete nonsense.

 

[Zee]

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 15m
Loiselle "Liles is the best defenseman outside of the NHL right now. At this point there is no way to fit him into our roster"

First sentence probably has some substance to it. Second sentence? Complete nonsense.

Yeah it seems like a very stupid thing to say.  If Loiselle tells me that Paul Ranger is better than Liles, he's telling a Ford.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Hope_Smoke on Twitter gets the credit, but since the beginning of last season Kadri has outscored Bozak 46 to 25 at even-strength with around 2:00 less ES/TOI per game.

It's pretty clear to me that Kadri deserves to be the #1 C.  I suppose perhaps they're trying to spread the offense out a bit, but in any event I think he's earned it over Bozak at least. 

 

[Peter D.]

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 15m
Loiselle "Liles is the best defenseman outside of the NHL right now. At this point there is no way to fit him into our roster"

First sentence probably has some substance to it. Second sentence? Complete nonsense.

Yeah it seems like a very stupid thing to say.  If Loiselle tells me that Paul Ranger is better than Liles, he's telling a Ford.

How he can suggest Fraser is a better fit for the Leafs than Liles is is beyond me. 

 

[Bullfrog]

Hope_Smoke on Twitter gets the credit, but since the beginning of last season Kadri has outscored Bozak 46 to 25 at even-strength with around 2:00 less ES/TOI per game.

It's pretty clear to me that Kadri deserves to be the #1 C.  I suppose perhaps they're trying to spread the offense out a bit, but in any event I think he's earned it over Bozak at least.

I would like to see Kadri on the top line for an extended time and Bozak on the 2nd/3rd line. Perhaps Raymond-Bozak-Clarkson. Just a hunch, but I think Bozak/Clarkson might be a good pairing.

Maybe:
JvR-Kadri-Kessel
Raymond-Bozak-Clarkson
Lupul-Holland-Kulemin
McClement-Smith-Orr

 

[Corn Flake]

- wasting skilled, speedy players on tough/goon hockey
- system worked great until other teams figured it out; then his inability to adapt led to slumps

I don't agree with these two points in general, at least I don't think we're seeing this.

To be fair, Carlyle isn't asking the skill guys to goon it up.  Maybe we have 1-2 too many goons on the team, but it's not as if he's asking Kessel to go out and fight.

On the other point, his ability to adapt in the playoffs is what helped take the Bruins to 7 games.  The Leafs got manhandled in the first game so he changed up the game plan and turned it around.  He does (and/or, should) get a lot of credit for that series not being over in 4 games.  His obsessive line matching helped in that area as well.

All that said, in general it feels like this team has already tuned him out, or are approaching that point.  Tonight's game to me is the tipping point in that regard. They can win this game and with some of the positives from the Sharks game if they apply it they will beat Dallas.

But in an era where coaches are interchangeable parts, the leash on Carlyle should be very very short.. like 1-2 weeks short.  If the Leafs play like crap tonight in the effort dept. then I'm on the bus for replacing the coach.  It will just end up being a different voice yelling almost the same stuff.

 

[bustaheims]

Hope_Smoke ‏@Hope_Smoke 15m
Loiselle "Liles is the best defenseman outside of the NHL right now. At this point there is no way to fit him into our roster"

First sentence probably has some substance to it. Second sentence? Complete nonsense.

In that second sentence, "at this point" clearly means "with Randy Carlyle as coach."

 

[Stickytape]

- wasting skilled, speedy players on tough/goon hockey
- system worked great until other teams figured it out; then his inability to adapt led to slumps

I don't agree with these two points in general, at least I don't think we're seeing this.

To be fair, Carlyle isn't asking the skill guys to goon it up.  Maybe we have 1-2 too many goons on the team, but it's not as if he's asking Kessel to go out and fight.

On the other point, his ability to adapt in the playoffs is what helped take the Bruins to 7 games.  The Leafs got manhandled in the first game so he changed up the game plan and turned it around.  He does (and/or, should) get a lot of credit for that series not being over in 4 games.  His obsessive line matching helped in that area as well.

All that said, in general it feels like this team has already tuned him out, or are approaching that point.  Tonight's game to me is the tipping point in that regard. They can win this game and with some of the positives from the Sharks game if they apply it they will beat Dallas.

But in an era where coaches are interchangeable parts, the leash on Carlyle should be very very short.. like 1-2 weeks short.  If the Leafs play like crap tonight in the effort dept. then I'm on the bus for replacing the coach.  It will just end up being a different voice yelling almost the same stuff.

Well, for example, I think keeping Orr and McLaren on most nights counts as choosing goons over skill. 

I also don't like that stretch-pass-chip-and-chase is basically the go-to play.  Watching a guy like Gardiner try to make a 2-line pass from behind his own hash marks so that Kessel/Bozak/JVR can tip it into the zone and chase it makes me facepalm - especially since they seem to ice it about a third of the time.

As for the lack of adaptation, I think we're seeing some of that now.  The Leafs' last regulation win was November 19th.  What has Carlyle really done to adapt his game to get the team out of this slump?  Even within individual games, there have been times where he could have done something to try to change the momentum - call a time-out, pull Reims before it's 5-0, or at least say something to anyone - but he won't.  Then in post-game interviews he only seems to know what went wrong, not why.  The answer is always "work harder".